Jugulars used only in supine position?

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Jugulars used only in supine position?

Postby tzootsi » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:31 pm

In looking thru the piles of CCSVI papers I've printed off, it appears that the jugulars are primarly used when in the supine (laying down) position. In the upright position, the spinal epidural and vertebral veins carry the drainage load. This raises a few questions in my mind:
Does this mean that most of the blood backup in the brain caused by blocked jugulars happens when sleeping?
What about the spinal epidural and vertebral veins that come into use when upright - can they have blockage?
If in fact the jugulars are more needed when laying down, this could give more credence to Andrew's inclined bed theory, since being raised up slightly might let the epidural and vertebral veins carry some of the drainage load.
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Postby zipfed » Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:34 pm

So who is going to be the guinea pig and sleep standing up? :wink: I personally have been giving the 4" incline bed theory a try for about a month now, I think I can tell a difference but it might just be placebo effect. I am curious though does anyone know what upright angle you need to be at so the epidural and vertebral veins are the veins draining the blood?
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Re: Jugulars used only in supine position?

Postby thisisalex » Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:00 pm

hello from a newbie :)


tzootsi wrote:In looking thru the piles of CCSVI papers I've printed off, it appears that the jugulars are primarly used when in the supine (laying down) position. In the upright position, the spinal epidural and vertebral veins carry the drainage load.


It absolutely makes sense. I have always used to ask my neuro: Why is that possible that i get much worse when i sleep a lot? After 8-9 hourse of sleeping i was like scrap. but only 6-7 hours was much better. the answer could be that my jugular is blocked, so laying down is bad for me.

When i tried Andrews inclined bed, the first 3 days was like being in heaven :) was fresh and relaxed in the morning

And regarding PPMS:
if you have a stenosis in your spinal vein, you deteriorate 16 hours per day. if you have it in the jugular you only use 8 hours per day to get worse.

btw i like this forum very much you guys are fantastic. keep up the good work

alex
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Postby patientx » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:13 pm

thisisalex:

Great user name.
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Postby Johnson » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:35 pm

it appears that the jugulars are primarly used when in the supine (laying down) position. In the upright position, the spinal epidural and vertebral veins carry the drainage load.


I found this:

showed blood flow mainly through the internal jugular veins in the supine position, but mainly through the vertebral plexus in the upright position
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15284348

I find that interesting, because I have been getting worse the last year or so, and one of my complaints is that I get dizzier when I lay down, and then again when I sit up . I also feel worse after sleeping more than 6-7 hours.

Before two weeks ago, I did not know that we normally have 4 jugulars, now I am thinking that it is my IJVs that are blocked (they cannot take over when I lay down), and that probably, I have constriction in the Vertebral Jugulars too. (Note to self: stop wondering until I get scanned...)

By the way, if you do not know what the Valsalva Method is, and Google it, be sure to read the whole bit before you try it. I think I just blew an atrium. Grin
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Postby ElMarino » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:06 pm

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I founmd this interesting.

I have slowly got used to having only a few hours sleep in bed. This has slowly become a habit because the longger I sleep in bed the worse my symptoms are. My body just slowly insisted that this would be the amount of sleep that I get. I have a nap midday sitting upright on a sofa.

Maybe the worsening of symptoms (especially spasticity in the legs) is due, as I always thought, to maintaining the same position for longer. But it seems also to ring true with this thread.
Apologies for my terrible username. I never thought I'd use the forum much when I registered..
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Postby Leonard » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:49 am

This is also my own experience: the symptoms are worst in the morning and after a long sleep.
It is yet another important indication adding to the plausibility of the CCSVI hypothesis.
The pieces of the puzzle all start to fit together so nicely
:D
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Postby sou » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:21 am

Same here. Sleeping for less than 8 hours make me wake up fine. Sleeping more than 10 (when I was on antidepressants) made me feel like sh*t, in terms of spasticity.

I must have a blocked left jugular, but still unsure. We could find no flow using Doppler when upright and it was significantly narrower than the right when supine. Its wall lacked elasticity because it took ages (20 seconds) for it to reopen when going supine.

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Postby AngelaO » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:56 am

I noticed this too. Almost all my relapses I first noticed my sx's upon waking
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Postby kathryn6112 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:23 pm

When I brought up CCSVI to my neurologist, he made the same comment about the jugular veins only being used during sleep. He wasn't impressed with CCSVI, but he did suggest using an inclined bed because he thought, if CCSVI was really the problem, the inclined bed might help. He did not realize that Zamboni and others were doing corrective surgery - he was skeptical when I mentioned this. He did say he would look through the information and I will talk to him about it in February. I would like to get him on board, because he is a great nuerologist and super smart, but he may be resistant due to pre-conceived ideas about MS. He actually knows Dr. Zamboni, though!

Anyway, I have tried an inclined bed for about 3 weeks, and the only benefit I see yet is sleeping a longer period before having to get up and pee, which is a great benefit! I also seem to be sleeping a solid 6-7 hours, but then I fall back to sleep for an hour or two. After reading this thread, I will make an attempt to just stay up and see if that makes me feel better. I have vision loss in my left eye and that is what I'm hoping to improve most.

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Postby Dahlia » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:38 pm

I guess this means horses dont get MS .............
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Postby AndrewKFletcher » Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:04 am

Kathryn

That is good news and not bad for a few weeks on Inclined Therapy.

Having your neurologist advise tilting your bed is indeed good news, others have also seen the evidence and been advising this method.

How does sleeping compare now to before your bed was tilted?


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Inclined Therapy vs Flat bedrest

Postby AndrewKFletcher » Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:09 am

John, tilt your bed correctly, have the whole bed inclined rather than just the upper half, the circulation improves greately when the whole body is tilted slightly.

Thanks for the reply

Based on the many reports now in from people with ms who are beneiting from tilting the bed in the two main threads and other threads discussing IBT there certainly is an effect for the majority.

My last post on my blog below shows a published paper reviewing studies relating to tradtional flat bedrest and shows clearly the deconditioning attributed to flat bedrest.
http://www.inclinedtherapy.com
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Postby sou » Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:10 am

Dahlia wrote:I guess this means horses dont get MS .............


LOL! Actually, they should, because there is no difference between standing up and lying down. On the other hand, they don't live for such a long time. What if we block the jugular veins of a newborn elephant, provided we somehow "bypass" any objections its mother may have?

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Postby Loobie » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:31 pm

I started a thread about too much sleep a while ago. I'm exactly the same. More than 6.5 hours or so and I'm spent until the next day. Then it's like it resets. I hate it! I want to sleep in on the weekends, but I feel better when in the routine of the week.
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