A History Lesson from Dr. Mark Haacke

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby Johnson » Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:33 am

muse wrote:...

Arne
who is at this point very, very ashamed to be a German...


Arne,

Never be ashamed of what others have done, or have not done, that you had no chance to influence. MS societies have been slow on the uptake of CCSVI world-wide, so nothing distinctly Teutonic there.

Ultimately, we are all human, no matter where we were born. You are you, and not your place of birth. I am Canadian-born, and my country has much regrettable history too, which continues to this day. At least you Germans learned something... If we are silent when we ought to speak, that is something else. You are "speaking".

Funny how the article referred to "liberation" in 1945, and we seek Liberation in 2010.
My name is not really Johnson. MSed up since 1993
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Postby cheerleader » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:47 am

Billmeik wrote:
Billmeik - read the post by jugular earlier in this thread for your answer -

that's just interesting historical info on how eae became the animal model for ms research. It was encephalomyelitis, the dogs got the same. They were different forms, but how different? Is fake ccsvi a way to bring on eae? or is it a way to bring on something different?
Anybody know?


The problem with the EAE model, Bill, is that in order to create it, you need to inject a foreign antigen into the body...so the assumption is that some foreign matter enters the CNS and creates this reaction.

In encephalomyelitis (a differential for MS)- the reaction of inflammation and demyelination is created by a virus or vaccine.

Putnams' dogs developed an encephalitic reaction (inflammatory/demyelination) that looked just like MS WITHOUT introducing any foreign matter....simply by blocking the cerebral veins. Ockham's Razor.

Why do we continue to use a model which needs that extra step of foreign matter injection into the CNS of animals? I think it's because immunologists can "cure" EAE....but it takes a VASCULAR doctor to stop venous reflux and congestion. Venous doctors have never studied MS...until now.
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Postby dunkempt » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:44 am

Why do we continue to use a model which needs that extra step of foreign matter injection into the CNS of animals? I think it's because immunologists can "cure" EAE....but it takes a VASCULAR doctor to stop venous reflux and congestion. Venous doctors have never studied MS...until now.


My whole life I’ve never seen a better illustration of a proverb

"When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

People have been trying very, very hard with hammers for so long. But then Prof. Zamboni's wife got MS and all he had was a crescent wrench...

-d
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Postby cah » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:12 am

It's even more than a paradigm shift, it's a shift of disciplines... I wonder if there's any precedence of a disease which "moved" from one medical area to another... I mean, you can't even really blame neurologists of not knowing anything about veins. It's like asking your dentist about your athlete's foot.
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." Socrates
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Postby dunkempt » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:23 am

It's even more than a paradigm shift, it's a shift of disciplines... I wonder if there's any precedence of a disease which "moved" from one medical area to another...


Well, I remember reading about people who spent *years* getting ineffective psychotherapy because of Erectile Dysfunction. Pre-Viagra, I mean...

Again, people doing the best that they could - with the wrong assumptions.

-d
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Postby Ernst » Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:38 am

Just reading "a history of multiple sclerosi", wonderful book.

About Putnam's dog-vein-plaque research.. one question.. how did Putnam exactly restrict blood flow with dogs? (Just want to know this little detail..)
My wife's 3 yrs post video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLeqLps8XR8

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Postby patientx » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:47 am

Ernst wrote:how did Putnam exactly restrict blood flow with dogs? (Just want to know this little detail..)


He didn't. He inserted a syringe in the longitudinal sinuses of the dogs and injected various types of oil and fat back up into the cerebral veins.
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Postby cheerleader » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:47 am

First, Putnam ligated the superior longitudinal sinus and then he injected small quantities of lard into the sinus between the ligatures so that the oil passed into the cerebral veins. Referring to the types of lesions formed, Putnam stated that "The similarity between such lesions and many of those seen in cases of multiple sclerosis in man is so striking that the conclusion appears almost inevitable that venular obstruction is the essential immediate antecedent to the formation of typical sclerotic plaques."

So, there was ligature, or a closing and sewing up of the superior sinus prior to the injection. Important step to reference.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 2/abstract

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superior longitudinal sinus

Postby Gordon » Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:35 pm

What is the human equivalent of this ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_sagittal_sinus
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Postby Ernst » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:32 pm

Thank you (especially Joan's link was very clear), now I got it. Some have written that "Putnam restricted dog's jugulars.." but that wasnt true. But he effected the flow in dogs brain and voilaa.. plagues 8O
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Postby cheerleader » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:06 am

Glad that helped, Ernst.
The human equivalent is the called the same thing, the superior longitudinal sinus or superior sagittal sinus, Gordon...it's inside the cranium, up above and behind the brain and drains into the transverse sinus, sigmoid sinus and then the internal jugular veins. Researchers have been blocking extracranial veins--the internal jugulars, specifically, in mice. Papers coming to publication. This will be a better model for CCSVI.

It is a shame that Putnam's research was not followed up after Salk and his team (including Thomas Rivers, the future developer of the EAE model) cured polio. The newly founded MS Society wanted a cure, just like the polio vaccine, and the focus became the immune system.

Ernst--glad you liked A History of Multiple Sclerosis by Colin Talley. Colin Talley also studied and wrote a paper on Putnam's treatment of MS in Los Angeles, after he left the east coast (rather disgraced) and came west to treat MS patients privately.
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Postby concerned » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:29 am

First, Polio has never been cured.

Second, only 3 of the 14 dogs that Putnam studied developed what he called "myelin lesions".

Third, didn't some of the dogs die?
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Postby CCSVIhusband » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:40 am

http://www.polio.com/?fa=learn/polio/disease

I'd say Polio is "cured" when people stop getting it ... your definition of cured is just different than the rest.


Just like MS will never be "cured" by CCSVI treatment or stem cell treatment (in the future) ... people MAY just stop getting it if done early enough, and that would be good enough for me and a whole lot of other people.
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Postby concerned » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:45 am

Preventing people from getting polio isn't the same as curing it, and people still get polio today.

PS- interesting page you linked. I quote:

Current Treatment Options
Because no cure for polio exists, the focus is on increasing comfort, speeding recovery, and preventing complications. Today, supportive treatments for polio include:1

Antibiotics for secondary infection
Analgesics for pain
Portable ventilators for breathing
Moderate exercise
A nutritious diet


It seems everyone uses cure the way I do.
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Postby CCSVIhusband » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:48 am

Go back down your (Alice in Wonderland Rabbit) hole ... so if people were prevented from getting MS is it not cured? Is that not a possibility with CCSVI caught early enough and perhaps stem-cells that work? Would THAT not be good enough for you?

I'd take that 7 days a week, 366 days every leap year.
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