A Postural Connection With MS? Please Answer Poll Questions

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

When are you most likely to notice a significant relapse /new symptom (RRms) or general deterioration / worsening of symptoms /new symptom (PPms)

Morning after sitting too long (Sitting)
16
15%
During or After using a wheelchair (Sitting)
6
6%
During the night while sleeping / trying to sleep (Horizontal)
6
6%
During or after standing (Upright)
5
5%
At night while trying to get out of bed (Horizontal)
1
1%
After or during Walking (Upright)
11
10%
Following a journey while sitting (Sitting)
12
11%
In the morning on waking (Horizontal)
23
22%
In the evening while resting (Sitting)
8
8%
Rising from bed in the morning (Horizontal)
18
17%
 
Total votes : 106

Postby katie45 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:34 am

Andrew, To elaborate on all symptoms that might have a postural cause would require much more stamina than I have. After reading all posts, I can say there are almost none I have not experienced and can (personally) say I feel all started and continue to be attributable to lack of bloodflow to brain and spinal cord. In the early years (*80's) dizziness was and remains the prominant thing and the reason I was put in w/c 2004. Thyroid,adrenals,digestion, bowel, bladder control, vision etc would all require proper circulation I would think *(that too) ? Since IT has restored some functions (note I am using capitals which requires two hands)! I believe sleeping on the incline is soley responsible for the improvement in spasms, waking with almost normal feeling and movement in both hands,lower back/hip pain as spine straightens. Foot drop (I am getting a dehumidifier) The greatest thing for me is no longer being terrified of what diabolical event would afflict my body next without my control.I have experienced pain in the area of the right jugular which seems to extend down the right arm/hand. Vision has also been worse lately. I have never taken any 'ms' drug.I prayed alot. Andrew and his wife appeared.
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Postby AndrewKFletcher » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:23 am

Katie
if you wear spectacles.
Have you tried reverting back to an older pair of glasses to see if they are better than the new ones?

Your last post is very inspiring for others considering I.T.

The improvements will undoubtedly continue to improve more.

Main aim is to get you up and walking short distances at first increasing a little at a time.

And yes, you are correct, we have many forms of circulation in the body, not just bloodflow.

Seeing as the heart is only involved with bloodflow, we need to be addressing the circulation of the whole body rather than focusing on one area in the veins.

I have some exciting published evidence about the growth of myelin being gravity dependent but will wait until the right time to share it.
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Postby katie45 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:04 am

Thank you Andrew. I am very excited to hear what you have re; myelin repair. Wanted to say I do have an mri of neck and brain from 2007 as a 'before' example tho I don't feel compelled to do another after because logic makes me question what a 'magnetic' test must do to brain full of iron ? I also have osteoporosis they say...When I try to stand, right leg feels like it's 2 feet shorter than left, making me afraid to try? Hoping this will change as spine straightens. re; mri...I could let u have a look at it...maybe you would see something...dghter (Rebecca) says she certainly does. If so where would I send/forward/email ?
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Postby AndrewKFletcher » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:26 am

Oryx, welcome to Thisisms and welcome to inclined Therapy and hope to see your reports in due course. thanks for joining us.
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No Need to buy a bed for I.T.

Postby AndrewKFletcher » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:30 am

tracy89 wrote:hi i found out i had ms in 2005 and my ms has got worse. i find it hurts more when i walk and sit in a wheelchair for to long. i also get tired on long jouneys too. i have been getting alot of cramp in my feet and carf muscle. i can't use a walking stick as i also have carpal tunnel in both of my wrists and i have virtigo too. i found out lastyear that i have ostio arthritis in my hips and left shoulder and surfer a stiff neck too. it is interesting to red what you have found out. i have just had a new bed and it is low wooden bed and i struggle to get out of it. think i will have to save up for a new one that is more raised. thankyou for your texting me and look forward to more info :)


Hi Tracy

Tilt your wooden bed. It being lower than normal beds will be corrected when you raise the head end.

No need to save for a bed, use blocks of wood, brixks, books, or plastic bed raisers, all far cheaper than a new bed.

As for info, there is a great deal here and on the inclinedtherapy group on Facebook.
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Postby AndrewKFletcher » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:40 am

Vonna

Did you use anything that would increase or decrease the G force at 6 flags, maybe a rollercoaster or big dipper, whirlitzer?

Was the humidity very high?

Have you considered that the tingling while walking might be the nervous system responding to the exercise? Not unlike warming icy cold hands near the fire?

The warming of the knot is also very interesting. The liquid crystal that asists the signals from and to the brain (myelin) requires a constant temperature to perform properly, too high or too low and the properties of the myelin alter.

You warming it could have had a direct influence on the way the nerves were functioning. thought provoking.

Andrew
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40 Votes and we need 500 votes. This is our target.

Postby AndrewKFletcher » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:17 pm

We now have 40 votes on the posture questions.

This is great, but we need 500 votes to form a constructive picture.

Please forward the link to all of your friends with ms and ask them to vote on the appropriate check box.
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-9774.html

When we reach our target, we can publish the results.

It is enlightening when you add the posture grouped answers together.
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Catatonic state induced by posture in shark, humans & an

Postby AndrewKFletcher » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:53 am

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum ... Bboardseen

The nervous system requires the constant pull of gravity in the correct direction through the shark’s body! Turing the shark, eel, crock, gator upside down sends the tiny pulses of salts that drive the spinal fluid in the wrong direction slowing and even shutting down the nervous system by compromising the circulation. Easily verifiable in a laboratory using barium or some other active substance to monitor circulation changes, but I guess its easier to carry on believing that gravity does nothing in the nervous system. Multiple Sclerosis has been shown to relate to high humidity in river valley areas and low laying coastal areas!

Catatonic state from reduced motor activity in humans and animals is not uncommon. Indeed sleep is a mild form of it, and sleep paralysis can be induced when the body position or posture of a person is incorrectly aligned with gravity. Placing a person who is catatonic in a compromising posture can cause that person to remain in the same position for very long periods. Oliver Sachs who the film Awakenings represented was faced with an unusually large number of people subject to catatonic state. This was believed to be caused by a form of encephalitis which causes inflammation of the brain. Yet as Sachs showed, the use of levodopamine (Ldopa) revived the patients temporarily before the onset of overdose caused severe malfunction in the nervous-system that was considered to be worse and more dangerous than the catatonic state.

I have written to Sachs on numerous occasions but I guess he is a very busy man, too busy to listen to someone who might just have found the common denominator in the sleepers who are in catatonic state. I believe that an increase in humidity can initiate the slowing down of the nervous system and suspect that high humidity was the cause of the encephalitis that led to the catatonic state, and indeed have related this to how dolphins and whales have to migrate in order to escape from very high humidity which significantly reduces their ability to outrun the trawlers nets and reduces their ability to stay under water and hunt for food. I also believe this is why pilot whales beach themselves and die while trying to avoid drowning. The humid air according to my own research would compromise the oxygenation capacity of the lungs and alter the flow of the cerebrospinal fluids by reducing the density changes caused by gas exchange from the respiratory tract.

Andrew K Fletcher

This video is not relating to the deep catatonic state induced by laying the shark on it’s back. But relates more to an enjoyable sensation that stupefies the recipient, in the sharks case the sensation is from gently stimulating the front of it’s mouth. In a bull terrier the same state can be induced by drawing a figure 8 continuously on the tummy. We use this method when showing dogs as it relaxes the dog and avoids any nervous reaction towards the judge or other exhibiters.

The bull terrier also massages it’s head under a tree, usually the Christmas tree or a large house plant. They go into ultra slow motion mode, it has us rolling the floor with laughter when they do this.

But again not the same reaction as turning a shark or gator on their back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWKvyqrr ... re=related this video is interesting. It shows a shark upside down reacting as a magnet is drawn near to its head, even when behind a plastic barrier.

Sleep induced paralysis is another interesting example, and something that affects my wife. She still has a the odd attack, but sleeping inclined has greatly reduced the onset from 4-5 times per night to once every 4-5 months
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... type=&aq=f

IMMOBILITY IN FIVE SPECIES OF FIDDLER CRABS, GENUS UCA

Lauren Bergey and Judith S. Weis

Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey, Department of Biological Sciences, 101 Warren Street, Newark, New Jersey 07102, U.S.A. (corresponding author (LLB) lbergey@pegasus.rutgers.edu; (JSW) jweis@andromeda@rutgers.edu)
Abstract

Fiddler crabs demonstrate a wide range of simple and complex behaviors in both mating strategies and defense mechanisms. During investigation, five species of fiddler crabs were observed engaging in immobility or catatonic behaviors after being turned upside down. While crabs were observed in a rigid, immobile posture for mean ranges of 45–171 seconds, several crabs were recorded to remain immobile for more than two hours. Fiddler crabs are often preyed upon by birds that use crab movement as a cue. Other crustacean species, such as lobsters, have been observed in this upside-down, immobile position after having their abdomens rubbed. Consequently, immobility may be an anti-predator strategy when escape is not feasible or a byproduct of tactile stimulation.
Defence or nervous system comprimised by posture?
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Postby Jasmine » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:35 am

I am completely confused by all of this. In the questionnaire of when symptoms come on, I felt they had to be following sitting, or standing, or rising to standing or lying as this is all people do in their day to day lives. When I look back at my own relapses, there was definately no pattern to symptoms. I could have ticked a box for all of them in the questionnaire, but since this covers pretty much all activities it seems a little bit vague. Secondly, and I don;t mean to be difficult, all of those examples of people suffering short term nerve palsies were following a local compression of the nerve involved - not due to their posture. eg the lady kneeling to pray - she was kneeling on the involved nerve, hence causing bruising to the nerve. The same with all of the examples given. The shoulder examples given then say there were other inflammatory tissue conditions involved which may have caused local compression of the nerve or compromised its integrity somehow - so I am confused as to where the evidence for all this is. May be someone could enlighten me. I want to believe it and have inclined my bed - but don;t see any convincing evidence as yet. Please can someone tell me as I'm sure I must have missed something here. Many thanks. :? :?
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Postby AndrewKFletcher » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:04 am

Jasmine

Either vote for when you first experienced an ms symptom chosing one of the check boxes, or for the check box that applies to more frequent ms symptoms. Everyone has one vote only and I can see you are giving this a lot of thought.

The cases from the old paper were put there to show how doing something relatively benign and short term like kneeling down can have a long term impact on the nervous system. While not ms related it does show how altering posture can have a direct impact on the nervous system and is something we should all be aware of.
There is more to this than just the temporary direct pressure at the knee. The bruising remains in place long after the person stands up and continues to develop for days after. Could this be due to posture also?

When a person has impact damage to the spinal cord, the bruising continues to worsen for many days post injury. Not long ago people with spinal cord injury were immobilized and kept flat, while rotating them, but maintaining the body horizontally. Sometimes for 6 months or more.

Now there are movements to get people mobilized as soon as possible and with good reason.
Immobility has been shown to cause the body to lose muscle, bone, density, heart atrophy, visual disturbancies, nerve damage, oedema, venous swelling, thrombosis, pressure sores and much more.

Back to those people kneeling, sitting etc.

When we are sitting for prolonged periods, are we not also applying pressure to the nerves between the bones and soft tissue compressed by our weight against the seat?

When we lay flat, our skin is compressed against the mattress and therefore comprimising the circulation?

Missed something? Yes you have missed something very important.

Read the reports on the inclined bed therapy threads from people with ms who have begun to sleep on an inclined bed.
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Postby Perky » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:07 am

I do hope this is not posted "off-topic", but I think it is related to posture and exacerbation of symptoms.

My last relapse was immediately preceded by a visit to the hairdressers, where the back of my neck was pressed against the hard basin while my hair was washed. I felt fine before I sat at the basin; upon sitting up I immediately felt unwell and my eyesight was weird - I felt removed, as if watching the world through a window. I struggled to walk home, feeling tired and ill.

By that evening I had developed double vision which continued for 2-3 weeks, and then went into a relapse lasting about 4 months. I was always convinved that the compression of the veins in my neck was involved in the relapse, even before I heard of CCSVI. My experience (and other symptoms involving my neck veins) meant that when I did hear of it, CCSVI made complete sense to me.
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Making a posture connection with ms onset

Postby AndrewKFletcher » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:17 am

Perky

Your post is on topic, The pressure on the neck from the basin is a valid observation. Thanks.

This also fits with the earlier paper refering to incidents of paralysis from pressure.

Now we know about the venous problem in the neck, your experience could be a direct result of additonal pressure on the veins, transfered from the compression force at the back of the neck.
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Postby shye » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:28 am

Perky,
I have seen reference to this, and think there is a name for it even--and I have experienced it as well.
And that area is where my chiropractor works: she has gotten my rotated atlas back staying in correct postion, and now periodically adjusts neck in area you speak of.
All this has made a phenomenal difference in my thinking clearer, moving better, etc.
So, yes, CCSVI theory makes great sense, but as I see it, you probably don't need the operation--you need to adjust your neck to correct postion, and use inclined bed to keep the circulation going properly. And work on nutrition to heal nerves and muscles damaged over the years.
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Postby shye » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:31 am

Andrew,
I notice I am worse after a long stint at the computer!
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Why Operate When Inclined Therapy works?

Postby AndrewKFletcher » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:00 am

shye wrote:Perky,
I have seen reference to this, and think there is a name for it even--and I have experienced it as well.
And that area is where my chiropractor works: she has gotten my rotated atlas back staying in correct postion, and now periodically adjusts neck in area you speak of.
All this has made a phenomenal difference in my thinking clearer, moving better, etc.
So, yes, CCSVI theory makes great sense, but as I see it, you probably don't need the operation--you need to adjust your neck to correct postion, and use inclined bed to keep the circulation going properly. And work on nutrition to heal nerves and muscles damaged over the years.


Thanks Shye

Muscular atrophy is where I.T. excells, even in spinal cord injury and cerebral palsy it has been shown to reverse the atrophy.

I agree, there is no need for invasive surgery for most people. Tring Inclined Therapy must be a more logical and safer approach gtiven these reports we are reading from people with ms who are using I.T.
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