Altitude and blood flow

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby AndrewKFletcher » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:16 am

Jugular I am with you on your pointer towards another cause and have found your reasoning logical and agree with much of it.

I think it is to do with the liquid crystal myelin some how becoming fuctional in the damaged areas, albeit a temporary fix. The damaged area has to be bypassed in order for function to be restored so quickly.

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Re: Altitude and blood flow

Postby AndrewKFletcher » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:57 am

vg440 wrote:Our bodys actually does respond with increased blood flow at higher altitudes and veins in particular do open and offcourse narrow.. as we all now know. Just like what AndrewKFletcher's pic of the water bottle .
Great pic Andrew!

Lets summarize...

-High altitude relieves narrowed veins due to low atmosphere pressure
-Increased blood flow occurs
-Body produces more red blood cells at altitude which requires more IRON... WOW!!!!
-reflux is no longer occurring and the deposited iron is most likely now used for the red blood cell production.

Hallelujah!!!!!!

ElMarino,

I too am looking for a wheelchair friendly high altitude destination.
The higher the better.
Nearest to Australia would be the Himalayas but probably not very easy to travel to.


You could ask around to see if anyone has a diving decompression chamber you could use that can reduce the pressure inside. This would be a great test.

Regarding Jugular's note on the blood circulation being open to the air. He is right to a certain extent. However, if our system was o-pen enough to avoid being influenced by external pressure, our blood would be squeezed out and air would be drawn in. This is obiously not the case, so like that bottle our vessels will contract and expand with pressure changes.

However, blood flow alone cannot explain return of function at altitude.
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Re: Altitude and blood flow

Postby AndrewKFletcher » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:14 am

vg440 wrote:Our bodys actually does respond with increased blood flow at higher altitudes and veins in particular do open and offcourse narrow.. as we all now know. Just like what AndrewKFletcher's pic of the water bottle .
Great pic Andrew!

Lets summarize...

-High altitude relieves narrowed veins due to low atmosphere pressure
-Increased blood flow occurs
-Body produces more red blood cells at altitude which requires more IRON... WOW!!!!
-reflux is no longer occurring and the deposited iron is most likely now used for the red blood cell production.

Hallelujah!!!!!!

ElMarino,

I too am looking for a wheelchair friendly high altitude destination.
The higher the better.
Nearest to Australia would be the Himalayas but probably not very easy to travel to.


Altitude increased respiration knock on effects.
Dryer air = higher evaporation rates = Lower atmospheric pressure = more efficient evaporation rates = greater density achieved in fluids in the lungs compared to sea level = greater positve pressure changes inside the arteries = Greater decrease in venous pressure due to solvent drag from the downward flowing pulses of denser solutes released with each breath = more expansion of lungs and deflation of lungs = increase in air flow and circulation.

Apply same effects to the circulation in the nervous system and lymphatic system along with posture due to improved activity.

Could this extra achieved density cause the myelin to migrate over the damaged area? For this myelin would need to respond to the direction of gravity and of course our posture while on the mountain. So the question is how does myelin grow / flow over the damaged areas? Could it be the same as how bark on a tree grows around a damaged area? Almost flowing over to seal up the removed bark? http://www.treeboss.net/tree_bark.htm

Could the euphoria felt at altitude have enabled a person to stand up and then walk? Or did the standing together with the improved circulation in the nervous system and bloodflow have responded to postural changes?


See my experiements on youtube with tubes and a density flow raising water without a pump to 24 meters vertical if you doubt that density changes in fluids can have an affect on circulation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz9eddGw8vg

Andrew
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Altitude and blood flow

Postby vg440 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:28 am

I agree with you Andrew.
I didn't state that repair of myelin was taking place. As the symptom improvements felt are lost at returning to sea level
The multiple factors of improvement felt by ms sufferers at altitude isn't just random coincidence, nor is it just minor improvement in most cases.
There are definitely many factors involved in these effects at altitude.
The myelin migration you mentioned does make sense.
Even though it wouldn't be repairing any damage already existing, it's plausible that the myelin itself could also expand ever so slightly, but enough to notice improvement of symptoms.

Obviously this is an area required to be researched properly and these positive effects on ms sufferers cannot be denied.

If there were only one or two reported cases of altitude improvement it may have been not enough reason to seriously consider.
However, having barely being able to walk 100m to hiking kilometres within a few days at altitude, not to mention no more blurred vision, no more bladder issues, normal balance (except for the vertigo).

I honestly thought I was cured.

That's how great it was!

Until I returned to Melbourne and within a few weeks.. all my symptoms returned.
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Postby AndrewKFletcher » Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:46 am

A professor wrote to me concerning a member of his family who has ms and experienced this same altitude euphoria and went from being unable to walk to walking with little effort. He wrote to me because he had read in my theory on ms about how altitude alters the circulation and enables this.

The person's ability to walk vanished on returning to sea level.

I have since informed him about CCSVI, Schellings and Zamboni's work.

Have just written again to him regarding this discussion and hope he will join us.

Also, read carefully Foreversprings posts and her experience at altitude.
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-65404-w ... html#65404
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Postby ForeverSpring » Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:37 am

AndrewKFletcher wrote:Also, read carefully Foreversprings posts and her experience at altitude.
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-65404-w ... html#65404
Andrew

As I stated on that thread, I moved from a hot, humid elevation of about 700 feet in the Southeast U.S. to a cool, dry elevation of about 8000 feet in the Rocky Mountains. This change has been very beneficial to my health.

When I first went to a local hardware store to purchase a little jar of putty, I noted that the caps on many of the plastic containers were pushed up by the putty inside and unsealed. When I commented to a clerk about it, he told me that they have similar problems with paint and many other products shipped from the lower elevations.

The local grocery store often has problems with those cans that have lids with a ring that you grab and peel back to open -- for example, on canned fruits. The lids are not strong enough to withstand the pressure from within the can, and the seal is often broken.

If these effects on inanimate objects are evident at only 8000 feet, what would it be like at even higher elevations?

There must be substantial effects of high altitude upon the human body that have yet to be investigated :!:

All I know is that I am very thankful to be able to live up here in the mountains. It is cool, dry, and quite windy, and I do have to continually apply moisturizers to my face, neck, and hands. My healthier life here is well worth that small inconvenience. :D

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Altitude and blood flow

Postby vg440 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:21 am

That is interesting ForeverSpring.
Sounds inconvenient for the store owner though.

Did you experience altitude sickness initially up there in the Rocky Mountains?
If so, for how long before it passed?
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Re: Altitude and blood flow

Postby ForeverSpring » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:37 am

vg440 wrote:That is interesting ForeverSpring.
Sounds inconvenient for the store owner though.

Did you experience altitude sickness initially up there in the Rocky Mountains?
If so, for how long before it passed?

Oddly enough, I only felt quite tired for a few days, but nothing else. However, I had driven alone for 1500 miles over three days to move here, and then there was all the unpacking and pushing and lifting boxes and furniture. That alone was enough to make me feel tired! After eagerly anticipating this move for several years, I was surely running on adrenalin! :lol:

People who arrive here from lower elevations do generally experience some degree of high-altitude sickness. They usually get over it within a couple of weeks at most. Their personal health problems will factor into that. E.g., someone with emphysema will have a very hard time and may not ever tolerate the altitude well.

We do frequently have seemingly healthy tourists who literally drop dead on our hiking trails, even young and middle-aged. It is wise to exercise caution when abruptly arriving at high altitudes.

I did think it unusual that I did not experience any difficulty in adapting to this altitude, especially considering my age. Is that related somehow to peculiar MS conditions in the body? Who knows?

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Foreverspring

Postby AndrewKFletcher » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:12 am

Thanks for dropping in and adding your own experience

A lot has happened since your last posts. Lots more people now seeing the logic in Inclined Therapy thanks to you.

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Re: Foreverspring

Postby ForeverSpring » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:26 am

I have been daily reading about the exciting benefits others are now deriving from Inclined Therapy. It is thrilling, indeed!

On February 20 I plan to post my one-year update.

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Postby Bethr » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:32 pm

Jugular wrote:I wonder if a revolutionary treatment of MS will end up being a good bleeding in order to chelate iron.


It's worked for me :D Other than that weird fit of spasticity on Monday I'm back to feeling great, with good energy, fluid joints and I got a whole nights sleep last night, 9 hours! That hasn't happened in a long time.

Question now is, how long will it last.
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Re: Foreverspring

Postby Zeureka » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:27 pm

ForeverSpring wrote:I have been daily reading about the exciting benefits others are now deriving from Inclined Therapy. It is thrilling, indeed!

On February 20 I plan to post my one-year update.

ForeverSpring


Hey, Andrew will be happy! 8) I also already started last week when came back from Poland with my internal jugular vein doppler diagnosis. And what a coincidence: today on YouTube s.o. even sent me a private message to try it!

So, Andrew, its spreading around! I also read in the French CCSVI forum that Docteur Franceschi of the Zamboni research team, working in St Joseph hospital in Paris, recommended it to a lady that was diagnosed for CCSVI via doppler by him (while telling her that unfortunately the intervention could not be done immediately, as "they are still in the experimental phase".).

Did not really feel any change yet, but heard it can take a while (up to 6 months). So you'll get a 6 month update from me, haha! :lol:

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Postby AndrewKFletcher » Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:55 pm

Steffi

Good news indeed. Very Happy

:lol:


Bet you notice changes in 4 weeks :) First 2 weeks can be uncomfortable but after that you should begin to notice a difference.

Good news about Dr Francheschi helping to spread the word. Have heard of others too helping, possibly because of these amazing posts on Tims.

The Internet has evolved into a powerful tool for research and social networking. Imagine where it will be in 10 years time :)

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Postby Zeureka » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:16 pm

AndrewKFletcher wrote:Bet you notice changes in 4 weeks :) First 2 weeks can be uncomfortable but after that you should begin to notice a difference.

Unfortunately last week I slipped most silly on the ice and fell flat on my back (and this in Italy!!). That's not helpful, my doctor said does not seem too bad. But still have huge back pain and always wake up one or twice at night from pain on right upper back side, which usually never happens to me.

But that has nothing to do with the inclination, it must be strings of my muscles that have been injured...
So give me another 4 weeks extra to get that one fixed and we'll see..:wink:

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Re: Altitude and blood flow

Postby Jugular » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:13 pm

vg440 wrote:I agree with you Andrew.
I didn't state that repair of myelin was taking place. As the symptom improvements felt are lost at returning to sea level
The multiple factors of improvement felt by ms sufferers at altitude isn't just random coincidence, nor is it just minor improvement in most cases.
There are definitely many factors involved in these effects at altitude.
The myelin migration you mentioned does make sense.
Even though it wouldn't be repairing any damage already existing, it's plausible that the myelin itself could also expand ever so slightly, but enough to notice improvement of symptoms.

Obviously this is an area required to be researched properly and these positive effects on ms sufferers cannot be denied.

If there were only one or two reported cases of altitude improvement it may have been not enough reason to seriously consider.
However, having barely being able to walk 100m to hiking kilometres within a few days at altitude, not to mention no more blurred vision, no more bladder issues, normal balance (except for the vertigo).

I honestly thought I was cured.

That's how great it was!

Until I returned to Melbourne and within a few weeks.. all my symptoms returned.


I think Andrew is closest to explaining this phenomenon based on nerve function. Simply put, nerve conductivity may be improved at high altitudes. Indeed, experiments on rats subjected to prolonged hypoxia demonstrates this concept. See http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/content/full/164/8/1476
and in particular:

An increased conduction velocity in myelinated and, to a lesser extent, unmyelinated nerve fibers could be explained by the fact that hypoxemia activates ATP-sensitive K+ channels, facilitating the membrane depolarization.


I think your observation that your symptoms returned shortly after returning to a lower altitude shows that high altitude exposure has no long term benefit but a definite short term perk.

I guess "picking your hill to fight on" has added meaning for those suffering from demyelinization. High enough up and WE have the advantage.

You may be interested in a new drug called Fampridine that’s just been approved by the FDA (to be sold in the US under the trade name AMPYRA by Acorda Pharmaceuticals) .

It apparently works much the same way as high altitude by blocking potassium channels on nerve fibres. I believe Biogen have marketing rights to it outside the US and may have applied for approval in Oz. Perhaps all the benefits of high altitude without having to leave home?
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