Sleep problems

A forum to talk about the general challenges of daily life with MS.

Sleep problems

Postby Artifishual » Thu May 01, 2008 6:46 pm

Again I am starting to have sleep issues. Last night I woke up at 2am. Like as if someone had poured cold water on me. I have taken all the sleep meds but they only work for me on a temp basis. Got up this morning and drove to Pleasure Island, real close to my office, and went fishing on a public pier. It was nice. The wind was blowing real hard, but I caught alot of fish. Enjoyed it so much I threw all of them back. It was worth it just enjoying catching them. Wish I could figure out this sleep thing. The only thing that even comes close is Benadryl. I konw I can't live on this for the rest of my life. Maybe this is just who I am? I was so tired that I could not even drive to my urologist appointment today in
Houston, the wife had to drive. I slept. Later arti :?
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Postby jimmylegs » Thu May 01, 2008 7:25 pm

i don't know if tryptophan will get you all the way thru the night arti, but here's a tidbit for ya:

The time-honored remedy of a glass of warm milk at bedtime, is still a common method to aid sleep. Milk contains tryptophan, and tryptophan is converted into serotonin, the hormone that controls sleep. Other foods containing tryptophan are honey, turkey, egg whites and tuna, all good as night time snacks.

Foods to avoid include coffee and other foods, drinks or anything containing caffeine - chocolate, cocoa, soft drinks and some over the counter and prescription medications.
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Postby Toyoterry » Fri May 02, 2008 1:00 am

I also have spells where I wake up alot at night. I finally figured out that it was from my muscles spasming while I was asleep. My MS nurse also came to the same conclusion and asked if my wife had ever seen me do this. I told her that for years before my MS diagnosis, my wife and I would freak out because there were nights when my body seemed to jump a foot vertically off the bed. I work nights now so we don't always sleep together and she really is not in the mood to watch me sleep anyway but it's no doubt a smaller version of the same thing. Good thing I'm on 90mgs of Baclofen a day.
Terry
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Postby Artifishual » Fri May 02, 2008 2:34 am

Thanks guys Homeskillet I consume 0 amounts of caffine, never touch the stuff. As for the Baclofen I have taken that also and all the Gapopens(sp) like nuerotin,lyrica,some others too Its to early to think tho. Thanks again guys and gals. :?
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Postby Nenu » Fri May 02, 2008 5:30 am

jimmylegs wrote:i don't know if tryptophan will get you all the way thru the night arti, but here's a tidbit for ya:


I LOVE tryptophan. One a night! I'm sure you folks have discussed it's other benefits here before, but notably I have read about it seemingly having a positive effect on preventing MS relapses on lab animals.
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Postby Artifishual » Fri May 02, 2008 5:41 am

Oh yeah I have also dabled a bit with the Melatonin supplement. This seems to send you into a deep sleep, but I seem to wake early with it as the effects wear off quickly. Maybe just me. My mom swears by the stuff. I also noticed that before I was taking mirapex for my severe RLS that melatonin also made it worsre.
Is there a natural approach to RLS? This crap for me isn't just a night or when I rest it is all day sometimes I get a twich in my shoulder also.

Sometimes I feel like Jerry Seifeld in that eppisode were he is in the sona with all those old guys and they are complaining and keep saying "yeah I got that" LOL I guess that's me Cause I got that too. :D
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Postby cheerleader » Fri May 02, 2008 6:20 am

Hey Arti-
This was the hardest thing to figure out for my husband-but he's finally sleeping thru the night, 8 hours straight :)

He takes 600mg. liquid magnesium (Natural Calm) with one baclofen and one tylenol pm. Calls it his cocktail. He sleeps well, and his spasms don't wake him up.

We've always lived in earthquake country, and the first time I noticed Jeff's nightly spasms was back in 1989 after the big San Francisco quake....I thought Jeff's bouncing around in bed was an aftershock. I was so on edge from the big one, every bump in bed woke me up! He's had RLS (undiagnosed) for a LONG time, now that we know it's MS, he's finally dealing with it.

hope you find some consistant zzzzzzzs,
AC
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby cheerleader » Fri May 02, 2008 6:26 am

One other thing....
How's your daytime fatigue? We found that dealing with Jeff's daytime tiredness has helped his sleep cycles. He takes 100mg. provigil during the day and is awake. Also make sure to get some sun on your face and skin, so your body knows it's daytime.

My theory is that MS is a pituitary/hormonal/sunshine processing disease, and that's why so many MSers have sleep and vitamin D issues.

Jeff hated L-tryptophan and melatonin...so you're not alone in that-

AC
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby Artifishual » Fri May 02, 2008 6:32 am

I did the tylenol thing to for a while, but if he doesn't need the tylneol have him take a bendryl instead. It is the sleep med in tylenol pm. I will have to look into the magnesium part ,what role does it play.

BTW Thought I heard something on the national news lately about more earthquakes in Cal.? Who can get anything from the news lately besides Obama/Clinton and Obama's pastor, I'm so sick of them beating this dead horse to death. As far as I can tell there is no good choice for a president this election,but I want open that can of worms in here. Thanks for the info. hey lets see somemore of those mountain pictures. I bet you live close to a winery to. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
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Postby Artifishual » Fri May 02, 2008 6:35 am

I am taking provigil also seems to keep me going. I try not to take it daily tho. Just when I really need it. Thanks
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Postby Artifishual » Fri May 02, 2008 6:44 am

Hey also , Yesterday I had an appointment with my urologist. I have not had to problems with my libido but he had ran my blood work to check my testostrone levels. I am only 35 and they came back at 466. Which he said this was about normal for my age. After talking to him for awhile about this and my fatigue he suggested that he give me a 200 mg shot of depo testostrone. Just to give me a boost of entergy. I havn't noticed it yet but he said that I will see a major difference within a few days. This is something that I was curios about being that i'm am begining a new exercise program. Just some food for thought I don't think this approach is for everyone. I do not plan on continuing this either it was just a sort of expirement. I am the human test lab. LOL
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Postby Artifishual » Fri May 02, 2008 6:48 am

Soon I will look like governor ARNOLD LOL :D
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Postby Nenu » Fri May 02, 2008 6:58 am

I see people referring to Tryptophan as "L-Tryptophan". Mine's labeled as "R-Tryptophan". I'm unsure of the differences, but having noticed the R in there, now I'm going on a hunt to find out more info :)
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Postby jimmylegs » Fri May 02, 2008 7:02 am

heya arti, you can still try tryptophan foods even if you don't need to give up caff. could still help. i dug up some relevant posts from the magnesium revelations period of late '07 ;D

well now that i've done it... that is a big read. arti i know you want the short story so here it is: take magnesium. 400mg to 600mg per day at bedtime, *with* a big glass of warm milk and honey. brand name: natural calm if you can find it. (i just take whatever, but that product sounds good in others' experiences)

back story: cheer had asked about hubby's muscle issues and i was having my worst throat problems at the same time...

also... the first few quoted items here are research heavy, last five are more chatty and readable if you want a quick impression.

re: libido i will send something else (about zinc 8) )

-jimmyskillet

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:46 am
muscle stuff: lots of magnesium (400mg daily http://alternative-medicine-and-health.com/conditions/msclerosis.htm), phosphorus, potassium (low mg -> reduced potassium)
nb: caffeine makes you pee out lots of mg.
also, magnesium in multis or blends can get tied up in interactions, take an extra mg supp away from any other supps.

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/magnesium.asp
Quote:
Magnesium: What is it?
Magnesium is the fourth most abundant mineral in the body and is essential to good health. Approximately 50% of total body magnesium is found in bone. The other half is found predominantly inside cells of body tissues and organs. Only 1% of magnesium is found in blood, but the body works very hard to keep blood levels of magnesium constant
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9556074&dopt=AbstractPlus.

Magnesium is needed for more than 300 biochemical reactions in the body. It helps maintain normal muscle and nerve function, keeps heart rhythm steady, supports a healthy immune system, and keeps bones strong. Magnesium also helps regulate blood sugar levels, promotes normal blood pressure, and is known to be involved in energy metabolism and protein synthesis http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3578120&dopt=AbstractPlus http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10727669&dopt=AbstractPlus.

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:17 am
more info. tough to find mg+ms-only studies, crap sample sizes, and the third is from med hypotheses, but still good reading :)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2353567&dopt=Citation
Quote:
Acta Neurol Scand. 1990 Mar;81(3):197-200.
Magnesium concentration in brains from multiple sclerosis patients.
Yasui M, Yase Y, Ando K, Adachi K, Mukoyama M, Ohsugi K.
Division of Neurological Diseases, Wakayama Medical College, Japan.

Magnesium (Mg) concentrations were studied in the brains of 4 patients with definite multiple sclerosis (MS) and 5 controls. The magnesium contents were determined by inductively coupled plasma emission spectrometry in autopsy samples taken from 26 sites of central nervous system tissues, and visceral organs such as liver, spleen, kidney, heart and lung. The average Mg content in the CNS tissues, as well as visceral organs except for spleen, of MS patients showed a significantly lower value than that seen in control cases. The most marked reduction of Mg content was observed in CNS white matter including demyelinated plaques of MS samples. Whether or not these significantly lower Mg contents found in CNS and visceral organs of MS patients may play an essential role in the demyelinating process remain unclear, requiring further studies on MS pathogenesis from the point of metal metabolism.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1468-1331.2000.00142.x
Quote:
European Journal of Neurology
Volume 7 Issue 6 Page 741-744, December 2000

The effect of magnesium oral therapy on spasticity in a patient with multiple sclerosis
The effects of magnesium glycerophosphate oral therapy on spasticity was studied in a 35-year-old woman with severe spastic paraplegia resulting from multiple sclerosis (MS). We found a significant improvement in the spasticity after only 1 week from the onset of the treatment on the modified Ashworth scale, an improvement in the range of motion and in the measures of angles at resting position in lower limbs. No side-effects were reported and there was no weakness in the arms during the treatment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11425281&dopt=AbstractPlus

The multifaceted and widespread pathology of magnesium deficiency
Even though Mg is by far the least abundant serum electrolyte, it is extremely important for the metabolism of Ca, K, P, Zn, Cu, Fe, Na, Pb, Cd, HCl, acetylcholine, and nitric oxide (NO), for many enzymes, for the intracellular homeostasis and for activation of thiamine and therefore, for a very wide gamut of crucial body functions. Unfortunately, Mg absorption and elimination depend on a very large number of variables, at least one of which often goes awry, leading to a Mg deficiency that can present with many signs and symptoms. Mg absorption requires plenty of Mg in the diet, Se, parathyroid hormone (PTH) and vitamins B6 and D. Furthermore, it is hindered by excess fat. On the other hand, Mg levels are decreased by excess ethanol, salt, phosphoric acid (sodas) and coffee intake, by profuse sweating, by intense, prolonged stress, by excessive menstruation and vaginal flux, by diuretics and other drugs and by certain parasites (pinworms). The very small probability that all the variables affecting Mg levels will behave favorably, results in a high probability of a gradually intensifying Mg deficiency. It is highly regrettable that the deficiency of such an inexpensive, low-toxicity nutrient result in diseases that cause incalculable suffering and expense throughout the world. The range of pathologies associated with Mg deficiency is staggering: hypertension (cardiovascular disease, kidney and liver damage, etc.), peroxynitrite damage (migraine, multiple sclerosis, glaucoma, Alzheimers disease, etc.), recurrent bacterial infection due to low levels of nitric oxide in the cavities (sinuses, vagina, middle ear, lungs, throat, etc.), fungal infections due to a depressed immune system, thiamine deactivation (low gastric acid, behavioral disorders, etc.), premenstrual syndrome, Ca deficiency (osteoporosis, hypertension, mood swings, etc.), tooth cavities, hearing loss, diabetes type II, cramps, muscle weakness, impotence (lack of NO), aggression (lack of NO), fibromas, K deficiency (arrhythmia, hypertension, some forms of cancer), Fe accumulation, etc. Finally, because there are so many variables involved in the Mg metabolism, evaluating the effect of Mg in many diseases has frustrated many researchers who have simply tried supplementation with Mg, without undertaking the task of ensuring its absorption and preventing excessive elimination, rendering the study of Mg deficiency much more difficult than for most other nutrients.


Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:48 am
more mg stuff... q: are they leg cramps you're asking about?

What are idiopathic leg cramps?
 A cramp is a transient, involuntary episode of pain, usually sustained for minutes (up to 10 minutes), in which whole muscles or muscle groups go into spasm.
 Idiopathic leg cramps are the most common type of cramps and involve the calf muscle, thigh muscle, and small muscles of the foot. They occur at rest and usually at night.
 It is probable that leg cramps occur when a muscle that is already in a shortened position is involuntarily stimulated. This commonly happens at night where the plantar flexed foot places the calf and ventral foot
muscles in the most shortened and vulnerable position.
[McGee, 1990; Riley and Antony, 1995; Kanaan and Sawaya, 2001; Salih, 2001]
What are the secondary causes of leg cramps?
Medical conditions
 Conditions that may cause cramps include:
 Metabolic disturbance (e.g. hyponatraemia, hypokalaemia, hyperkalaemia, hypocalcaemia, hypomagnesaemia, hypoglycaemia).


Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:44 am

Jimmylegs-
...
Found the following on a nutritional health site-
http://www.nhfw.info/multiple-sclerosis.html

Symptoms of MS that are also symptoms of magnesium deficiency include muscle spasms, weakness, twitching, muscle atrophy, an inability to control the bladder, nystagmus (rapid eye movements), hearing loss, and osteoporosis. People with MS have higher rates of epilepsy than controls. Epilepsy has also been linked to magnesium deficiencies.

Here are some interesting studies on multiple sclerosis and magnesium:

In a 1995 paper published in the journal Acta Neurologica Scandinavica, patients with multiple sclerosis were found to be low in cellular magnesium.

In a 1994 study from researchers at the Department of Physiology, State University of New York randomly selected hospital patients, compared to a control group of health volunteers the hospital patients with coronary heart disease, rectal cancer and multiple sclerosis exhibited extracellular deficits in ionized free magnesium.

In a 1990 paper published by researchers from the Wakayama Medical College, Japan, magnesium (Mg) concentrations were studied in the brains of 4 patients with definite multiple sclerosis (MS) and 5 controls. The central nervous system tissues and the visceral organs, except for spleen, of MS patients showed significantly lower magnesium values than that seen in control cases.

In a 1986 paper published in the journal Medical Hypothesis, A group of young patients having MS were treated with dietary supplements containing magnesium, calcium and vitamin D. The results showed a decrease in the relapse rate compared to what would have been expected based on the patients prior history of symptoms.

In a case report published in the European Journal of Neurology, a patient with MS treated with oral magnesium glycerophosphate therapy, showed significant improvement after only one week of treatment.

-Aging Cheerleader


Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:39 am
i am REALLY glad you are finding that info useful, C, because i gotta say it seems to be working wonders for my throat function. it is UN. BE. LIEV. A. BLE!


Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:33 am
Hi all-
Wanted to thank you all for the suggestions and sage advice. I feel like I'm back at school, taking a crash course in chemistry. I'm learning more here than at the Drs. office, that's for sure!

Jimmylegs- I found a magnesium supplement that hubby takes before retiring called Natural Calm. It's a powder which you add to warm water. He's been on it for a week, and we've noticed a decline in the severity of the spasms. Now they're more like "twitches" and he's able to sleep thru them. He's taking tylenol pm for pain, and that's taking the edge off. We're sleeping so much better.


Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:44 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Hey Jimmylegs-
Funny you should ask about dosage. I gave my husband 2 tablespoons the first night (didn't get my reading glasses) and accidently gave him the runs the next day. oops. Fortunately, he's still speaking to me. Now we're on 2 teaspoons a night (about 400mg.) The bottle recommends a 3 teaspoon serving for 615 mg. We'll probably get to that dosage level next week.
thanks again,
AC


Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:56 am
Jimmy
I just put approximately 1 1/2 tsp. in a mug of water. I don't measure exactly. I think if you put a lot more in the taste isn't so great. I'm afraid I didn't ask the neuro for the reason for this product. The only thing he mentioned to me was that it would help with "regularity". That's not like me, either, because I usually question everything. When I see him in a couple of weeks I'll check with him and report back.
Lori


Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:21 pm
ah, hahaha so we have a laxative product! so far today, i have taken 600mg, not all at once, but closer together than usual doses, to fit in another 200mg at bedtime - but i do feel like i might have overdone it a smidge! i think tonight i'll skip it in case i get myself into trouble with commuting and classes tomorrow :S lol! thanks for the heads up, both!
Last edited by jimmylegs on Fri May 02, 2008 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Nenu » Fri May 02, 2008 7:05 am

I was on 600mg of magnesium before bedtime, along with tryptophan. Now I take my magnesium in my compound (if memory serves me correctly). I found the 600mg was causing me constipation, which stopped when I stopped with this amount.
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