Wahls diet discussion

A board to discuss various diet-centered approaches to treating or controlling Multiple Sclerosis, e.g., the Swank Diet

Re: Wahls diet - improvement to report

Postby mrbarlow » Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:19 am

Great news Dave. Keep posting the updates :smile:
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Re: Wahls diet - improvement to report

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:40 am

hi dave great news!

please repost in the wahls diet discussion sticky for the benefit of future readers.

keep it up!
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: Wahls diet - improvement to report

Postby dkep11 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:43 pm

sorry - pilot error.
I tried to post it in the Wahls sticky, but I must have done it rong...

I opened the Forums link, then the Diet link, then the Wahls link, then hit "new topic"... I thought the post would have gone there.

I was surprised to see it at the top level in the Diet link.

So I deleted it & tried again, same result, so I left it. What is the correct way?

-Dave
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Re: Wahls diet - improvement to report

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:51 pm

use 'post reply' and it should work. or you just scroll to the bottom after the last prior post, to use the quick reply field. then submit, and you're good to go :)
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: Wahls diet - improvement to report

Postby dkep11 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:56 pm

ok, I'll try again!
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby dkep11 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:03 pm

reposting this, I did the first one rong...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have some exciting news to report...
On, 10/9/2011, about month 5.6 of the Wahls diet, I repeated the MSTest I do every 2 or 3 weeks: I try to climb into my scooter from the floor, unaided.

This is an ability I lost most recently. My last record of doing it sucessfully in my daily log was in February of this year, though this ability was eroding in Feb, Jan, and Dec 2010.

I could not do it at all in April when I started this diet, nor at any time since.

On this day I did it, totally unassisted.

I call this "smoking gun" proof that this diet I'm doing is the right thing.

I'm not *just* talking myself into it. I'm not *just* doing something better. I am not *just* seeing what I want to see.

It is the fact that I can do it at all that is important.

It is not debateable.

This is the first time I have ever (in my MSlife) gotten even a tiny bit better MSwise.

Before now it has been a slow one-way downhill ride. If I lose an ability it doesn't come back.

I'll eat like this for the rest of my life.

-Dave
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby Trent » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:17 am

I have had progressive MS for half my life; I’m almost 70. I use a wheelchair fulltime, and am reduced to typing with one finger of my non dominant hand. I have MS fatigue and spend afternoons in bed. I can barely lift a filled mug . I use rice milk, but usually drink water, or sometimes straight fruit juice. Although I have fatigue, I don’t have brain fog, and have an active mind. I have never taken any MS drug. I was able to work from onset - 1975 to early retirement - 1994.

I tried gluten free and dairy free for over 2 years, also the Klenner protocol, and recently had CCSVI treatment, all with no improvements.

I’m in the UK, and need some rudimentary explanations.

How big/how much is ‘a cup? What is the definition of ‘A cup of.’? Does it mean raw veg, or cooked? Is it a portion? Does it convert to a weight?

Are collared greens what we would call spring greens - fairly loose top growth of a type of leafy cabbage plant?.

What would be ‘brightly colored vegetables’?

Is canned asparagus OK?

Does banned ‘sugar’ mean the white/brown granulated stuff from cane and/or beet?

What about maple syrup- a plant food?

Or honey?

What organ meats, apart from liver, are beneficial?

Does the Wahls diet stipulate ‘low /no carbohydrates? Where does sweet potato fit?

I'm an older MSer who needs to experience a marked improvement in my symptoms - I have much still to do, people and places to visit, and not a lot of time left.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:28 pm

hi there, gluten free is good because it can help reduce the zinc demands on your system. if you have enough zinc in you, you can handle gluten.

the klenner protocol was developed before the bulk of the body of research was complete regarding vitamin d3. do you have d3 in your regimen?

any calcium and/or magnesium supplements?

the klenner protocol is also a bit short on zinc. you can try upping the dose to 50mg/d.

a cup is about 250ml. 8 fl. oz. raw or cooked should be specified. weight depends on the substance measured.

collard greens: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collard_greens

brightly coloured veg would be things like swiss chard, kale, spinach, red pepper, carrots, and sweet potato.

i don't know about sugar i don't go crazy with sweets either way.

i don't know about organ meats - liver is great for the zinc content.

sweet potato is a good choice for slow release low glycemic index carbohydrate. and it's anti-inflammatory.

to be clear i'm not on what i would consider the wahls diet. but nutrition is certainly an important component of a healthy approach to dealing with ms.

how's your intake of fish and fish oil?

if you have a supplement regimen i'd be interested to hear details.

cheers!
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby Trent » Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:03 am

Thanks jimmylegs. I’ve been in limbo for a while now. As I said I followed a modified Klenner regime, (Dale Humphreys), for a long time, including calcium, magnesium, Vit d3, fish oil, Vit b1 by daily injection, with no obvious benefits.

In June 2010 I took a week’s course of high dose steroids, as this had put me back on my feet quickly in 2004. This time it worked against me and I ended up worse than before and was hospitalised for 3 months during which supplementation came to an abrupt stop.
Following that, I was checked for CCSVI and had treatment earlier this year, but there was little effect.
I now see my best chance to recover again to be by following Dr Terry Wahl’s diet, whereby she went from tilt/recline wheelchair to cane to cycling miles, within several months; all this by following her own researched strict diet to enhance mitochondria performance.

Over the past year I have dropped the gluten-free, dairy-free, low sugar diet, while taking time to re-analyse my position and options. Having done so, I am gearing up to implementing the Wahls diet in its entirety, but needed some clarification first.

This was my earlier supplement list:

VITAMIN DOSES as per Klenner, modified by Dale Humpherys:

VITAMIN A daily dose: 3,500-6,000IU.

BETA CAROTENE with mixed Carotenoids Daily suggested: 16,500 - 25,000 IU (10 - 15mg).

Multi Enzymes ( take 3 per day, 1 before meals)

Vitamin B12 1 x day under tongue

Vitamin B100 multi vitamins 1 x day

Niacin (Vitamin B3) i x twice weekly before breakfast 100mg - 300mg

Vitamin E 2 x daily

Vitamin D3 1 x day you should have 2000IU to 5000IU daily.

Daily intramuscular injection of vitamin B1 of 300 to 400 mg.

There are certain supplements that I may include with the Wahls diet, but I don't think they figure large in her scheme.

Thanks
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby Thekla » Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:44 pm

she talks about kale and beets a lot. She makes kale chips in the oven that she says everybody really likes. She also juices a lot, including the beets. She doe have a number of videos posted on youtube that might help. In one, she makes a detox smoothie with beets. I am just getting serious about researching her protocol. Her story is compelling and I figure that it is worth a try. I've done the BBD for over a year without any dramatic changes but her concentration on the colorful veggies is different.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby Trent » Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:24 pm

Hi Thekia,
Yes, I think we are on the same wavelength here. I've read quite a lot of her writings- some are on her Facebook page. I'm hoping for the same mobility improvements she had. I must train my wife to buy less cheese! I must get back to gluten and dairy free. What does she mean by 'a cup of greens'?

Trent
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:03 pm

hi trent so just to clarify, per the klenner regimen, you're currently on at least 30mg zinc per day

absolutely a healthy whole food diet is a necessary foundation. nobody can live on doughnuts for example, and expect a supplement regimen like the klenner protocol to make up for it.

i agree with many of dr. wahls' dietary recommendations although i do disagree with a few. by and large it's a decent approach, although personally i don't bother cutting out certain foods entirely, and i'm fine (so far)
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby emess2 » Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:30 pm

Hi Trent,

From Dr. Wahl's book (pg. 181 in my copy):

1 cup = small banana, apple, chopped raw vegetables, 1/2 cup cooked vegetables, 2 cups leafy greens (i.e. spinach, romaine, or kale), 1 teaspoon spirulina or chlorella or blue green algae.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby Trent » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:32 am

Hi,

A few points..

'hi there, gluten free is good because it can help reduce the zinc demands on your system. if you have enough zinc in you, you can handle gluten.'

How much zinc needed? All I've read say 'go gluten free'

I stopped all supplements when hospitalised. Nothing was slowing decline. I've taken no regular supplements in over a year.

Are carbohydrates - potato, sweet potato, banana allowed? I thought it was another no-no?

I have salmon, sardine, prawns now and again, though probably not as often as I should.

I use high quality fish oil, but again not regularly like before.

Mention is made of beets. Is this red beetroot? What about parsnips, or swede?

What do folk eat for breakfast? I'm just thinking of changing to a banana and an apple. It might not be enough to prevent feeling hungry later on. Comments?
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:26 pm

hi :

so here's the thing (and we're off the wahls topic now, sorry, this is just me): i don't buy the go gluten free deal in the long term. maybe in the short term, but if your system is broken to the point where you can't handle gluten, you need to fix it, not avoid gluten and just leave the system broken.

the serum zinc level seen in healthy controls in the literature is typically up around 18 umol/L. (a tight average around 18.2 umol/L)
most ms patients are in the low teens. my original level when i got tested was 8.6 umol/L. the 'normal' range is 11.5-18.5 in the literature but in many labs they use 10-20 umol/L as a reference range.

low zinc is linked to the low uric acid levels also commonly seen in ms patients. i battled low uric acid for years with no success but as soon as i fixed the zinc problem, my uric acid rose to a healthy control level immediately. you need adequate zinc to run your urea cycle properly. (not to mention the hundred or so other jobs zinc has to do in your body as well)

when i was deficient in zinc my doc told me to take 100mg per day for a month, and then re-test. i had to take it in divided doses to avoid stomach upset - 50mg, 2x/d. now i take 50mg most days, balanced with 2mg copper (because excess zinc can deplete copper so if you take it in balanced doses you can avoid that issue)

re carbs: simple, pro-inflammatory carbs bad, complex anti-inflammatory carbs good.
sweet potato is great - nice complex carb, lower glycemic index, and it's anti-inflammatory. potato not so much. bananas are pro-inflammatory but they are still a good source of potassium, so just eat them in moderation and ensure other anti-inflammatory foods are eaten to balance things out overall.

as for the beets, yes beets are red beetroot. part of the goodness is the high colouring therefore i would suggest that parsnips and swedes aren't quite there.
you can read more about beet nutrition at the World's Healthiest Foods web site: http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... ce&dbid=49
(that web site has no info on parsnips or turnip/rutabaga/swedes - apparently they don't make the cut).

for breakfast i typically eat one of two things:
either mixed frozen berries, vanilla yogurt, and a sprinkling of nuts and seeds (perhaps a little granola too) OR,
a veggie omelet, possibly on a piece of whole grain toast but not necessarily.
the fruit breakfast is mildly pro-inflammatory. the egg on toast thing is decently anti-inflammatory overall, but purely due to the inclusion of sauteed onions, peppers, and spinach.

re the banana and apple thing: the banana is mildly inflammatory and a medium one has an inflammation factor rating of -60. a medium apple is mildly inflammatory with an IF rating of -30. you need to make sure your over all score for the day is more like +100, so according to the IF system, you'd have to eat much better anti-inflammatory stuff at lunch and dinner to compensate for the banana/apple breakfast option. hope that makes sense!
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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