Wahls diet discussion

A board to discuss various diet-centered approaches to treating or controlling Multiple Sclerosis, e.g., the Swank Diet

Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Mon May 28, 2012 3:35 pm

arg fine i'll grab my response to you and dump it in here too :) lol
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Mon May 28, 2012 3:38 pm

hey there! you are most welcome.

any possibility of getting bloodwork done in future? this is a major gap in the dietary protocols out there, by and large.

anyway i think we may have nailed down your issue. first, separate the zinc intake from the d3. that comes before any doubling of zinc supplements. also if you take 100mg zinc in one go, it might make you feel sick to your stomach.

perhaps try taking the 50mg zinc plus 2mg copper with your morning meal rather than lunch, if possible. zinc is naturally highest in the blood in the morning. then you can keep on with the d3 and mag at lunch, plus that extra mag after dinner. give it a week like that before deciding you need 100mg zinc in a day.

everything else looks pretty awesome, as far as supplements are concerned. good job.

as for diet, it looks awesome but i can clearly see some gaps. calf's liver is the only food i can find that claims to be an 'excellent' source of zinc. venison is a 'very good' source, along with crimini mushrooms and spinach. 'good' sources include beef, asparagus, scallops, lamb, swiss chard and shrimp.

for comparison between animal and non-animal sources, a cup of cooked spinach delivers 1.4mg of zinc. meanwhile 4 oz of venison delivers 9.8mg. all the same, spinach and venison are both considered 'very good' sources. don't be fooled by those veggies!

so, see if you can get some nice zinc-y game meat in ya! it's corn fed red meat that's fatty and pro-inflammatory, not wild game. any hunters in your extended social network?

also if you can, diversify that seafood a little to include some scallops and shrimp. scallops do contain some mercury, along the lines of 0.05 ppm (compare tuna at 0.12 ppm). i can't find a ppm on shrimp, just that it's in the top 5 seafoods considered 'low' in mercury (see also catfish, pollock etc). regardless, if you rectify your zinc situation your body will be able to show the mercury the 'door'.

oh and as for that pilonidal thing, i totally think you and i both have had it, but from my xp it's treatable with zinc, while people who don't know any better go and have it dealt with surgically. those people who need surgery and antibiotics just straight up do not have enough zinc in their system.

no probs re the doughnut cushion.

one more question. can you elaborate a little on the leafy greens, sulphur veg, colours and nuts/seeds in your diet? i'd like to do a daily protein assessment on the nutritional yeast and nuts, so the closer you can get to measured amounts, the better.

let me know!
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby lyndacarol » Mon May 28, 2012 6:11 pm

dc – I know nothing about this pilonidal business. If you have found a person (JL?) with experience, I would try her recommendations first before jumping into surgery or even antibiotics. I think Wahls' diet is very healthy and certainly would not hurt you.

About dates… I love dates too, but they contain much sugar. The Medjool variety of dates contains much more than the deglet variety, but I think both have too much sugar (fructose) to be allowed on the Wahls' diet (This is only my opinion.). She generally recommends blackberries, blueberries as berries are very low on the glycemic scale.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Mon May 28, 2012 7:28 pm

another little tidbit, curse my limited access :S

Role of Zinc in Humans
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ba-1979-0172.ch013
"In 1966 Pories and collaborator (47,48) reported that oral administration of ZnS04 to military personnel with marsupialized pilonidal sinuses was attended by a twofold increase in the rate of reepithelialization."

marsupialization is just another kind of surgery.. hunting for someone, anyone, who just gave patients zinc without slicing them up first. no dice so far. just personal xp.
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby dc10 » Tue May 29, 2012 8:48 am

Hi JL,

I have not had bloodwork to check my levels, are they worth the expense?
would i need to have regular bloods? how often

I have now changed my zinc timing, so this morning i had 50mg zinc with 2mg copper with breakfast. after a week i will re-assess, but how will i know if 50mg isn't enough?

the reason i don't eat cow liver, is my doctor is well against red meat consumption, saying the dangers / harm associated with eating red meat, especially in MS patients.
but like you said, wild game would be very different, so ill try and find a butcher who sells wild game organs and meat

does the benefit outweigh the risks associated the eating red meat?

- i will start eating shrimp and scallops (yuck :p)


my diet:
cup of greens : kale, spinach, cabbage, lettuce, etc
sulphur: brocolli, mushrooms, onions, cauliflower, asparagus ,
colours: peppers, turnips, beetroot, grapes, radishes, carrot
seeds: pumpkin, seasame, hemp, flax, sunflower seeds - half a desert spoon of each with lunch and dinner

i stopped eating nuts about two weeks into the diet as i assumed this was why my eczena was getting worse, but it continues not to heal, so i might go back on nuts

- i sometimes have salmon/tuna with lunch as well,
i have 1 desert spoon of nutritional yeast with breakfast

- - I also have Bentonite Clay foot baths every other day for 30 minutes each time, to detox heavy metals - as recommended in Dr Wahls' book

by the way, i just bought some 'zinc and castor' cream, to use on the sore sinus, so that will hopefully help

after applying the cream, here is a photo of the sinus. warning: for those who can stomach it!:
http://tinypic.com/r/34e6sgi/6
- the shiny skin around the sinus is the zinc & castor cream after it was rubbed in
you can see a raised area above to the right of the sinus, im guessing this is the collecting of pus?

i may have an epsom salt bath , if it will help

from the nhs website- http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Pilonidal- ... ction.aspx

A pilonidal sinus can become infected by bacteria, causing pain and swelling. A pus-filled abscess can then develop within the sinus. This will require an operation to open the sinus up and drain away any pus, bacteria or other waste materials. A pilonidal sinus will not cause any symptoms until it becomes infected.

If a pilonidal sinus becomes infected, it should be treated immediately to prevent the infection spreading. It is important to stop the infection spreading into the blood (called sepsis) as this can be serious.
You may initially be treated with antibiotics, but you will also need to have the pus drained out of the abscess. This is called incision and drainage.
If the sinus keeps becoming infected, surgical removal of the sinus is usually recommended.


After reading all of the comments at the bottom of that page, reading person after person taking antibiotics, then surgery, months later, the same all over again,... i cant help but doubt zinc can cure this problem? or can it
wont i be having the problems im having now, 10 months down the line..

Do you feel intensive nutrition and the supplements i take are sufficient treatment for P.S


i feel sooo weak today, i can barely walk a few metres, compare that to before starting the diet where i could walk 100 metres no problem! :(
it must be the sore pilonidol sinus weakening my legs so much, well i hope so :s

its quite demoralising, changing my lifestyle and diet for the past 5 weeks, sacrificing tasty food so that my disability improves and all its done is get worse and worse!


JL, you have guided me and provided me with more help than any doctor has,
so thank you
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby stillfighting » Tue May 29, 2012 10:26 am

I will play devils advocate here. Everyone knows an infection can play heck with MS. You have an infection. Do you really want to let this go untreated? Do you really believe your just "detoxing"
Please seek medical attention ASAP and get on an antibiotic. Do not let this go systemic, if it has not already. You say your MS is worse. Do you need anymore evidence.. ??
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby dc10 » Tue May 29, 2012 1:47 pm

stillfighting, i think you're right, the reason i feel worse is down to the pilonidal sinus,
it makes clear sense, it cant be just detoxing and everything fits to p.s

however, as my first episode of p,s was july last year, it is no doubt in this systemic stage, unfortunately
and those that have had it a long time and done these antibiotics and surgery, do not cure it, im not sure if the result is even ever positive

please spend a minute reading through the comments on this nhs p.s page, its located at the bottom
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Pilonidal- ... ction.aspx

id say 95% of the experiences posted are negative following the conventional antibiotics then surgery route, i keep reading about the awful pain and suffering,
one poster saud they used castor oil and this was better than antibiotics!

just read through the comments, tell me, would you really go down the antibiotic/surgery route instead of trying the natural way first, especially after reading all these horrible experiences!

as Dr Wahls has restored her health from being in a inclined wheelchair to walking/cycline in 9 months, i cant help but be optimistic i MAY be able to treat/repair the P.S too

thank you for sharing your opinion though
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Tue May 29, 2012 2:37 pm

i totally agree that there's an infection going on, and luckily zinc is an antiviral/antibacterial/antifungal nutrient (along with selenium).

i really do think a blood test is worthwhile - that's how you make sure 50mg daily zinc is enough. where are you located? that will help us figure out what the expense might be. for myself, at this stage i only get tests every year or so.. if i have to go for something anyway, i'll get a lab requisition while i'm there. my last set showed i've been too lazy with my d3 lately. good to know afaic.

re red meat - i've posted a bunch of traditional diet stuff in my regimens over the last day or two. it's sooo full of red meat, but none of it is domesticated and corn-fed. wild or grass-fed is where it's at. just my 2c.

for the zinc i would say the benefits far outweigh the risks. this is recognized in certain diets, but people take a 'reduce' recommendation and seem to feel that if less is better, none is best. i strongly disagree. i've been down the extreme exclusionist route and it did me no good whatsoever. the opposite in fact.

note the best bet diet for example (not that i agree with the thing in its entirety, just taking this example to make a point). it says reduce "A.Foods that contain saturated fat. Eat red meat (lean cuts) only once a week." also increase "skinless chicken breast, game meat and fish for protein content.

so often it seems people interpret this by removing all red meat. this diet clearly does not suggest that though.

i have to leave for an AGM but will be back later to continue the chat. glad to help. unfortunately it's not the doctor's job to study nutrition in-depth like this. so we're left to our own devices. hallelujah google scholar. where would we be without you!
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby stillfighting » Tue May 29, 2012 3:18 pm

Yes, I would nothing is stopping you from doing the Wahls diet and zinc. If you don't want to do the surgery at least try an antibiotic.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby stillfighting » Tue May 29, 2012 4:04 pm

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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby stillfighting » Tue May 29, 2012 4:34 pm

I implore you to seek medical attention. I am concerned a systemic infection is very serious. I am very concerned this is why your MS symptoms are worse.
NOTHING is stopping you from continuing on with the Wahls diet.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby stillfighting » Tue May 29, 2012 5:12 pm

If you go back and re-read the post on the board to the link you posted. The ones who are having trouble.
They have said it's because they waited to seek treatment. They are begging people NOT to wait.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Tue May 29, 2012 7:39 pm

zinc IS antibiotic. and antiviral. and antifungal.

Zinc and infection: a review
http://www.josorge.com/publications/Cit ... JL/007.pdf
Abstract Dietary zinc deficiency is widespread in developing countries and is often aggravated by intercurrent
acute and chronic infections. Recent studies have demonstrated that zinc supplementation can significantly reduce
the morbidity and mortality of apparently well-nourished children and shorten the time to recovery from acute
infectious diseases
. This review summarises current knowledge of the role of zinc in childhood diarrhoea, acute
respiratory infections and malaria, and its potential role in diseases associated with impaired cellular immunity,
namely tuberculosis, lepromatous leprosy and leishmaniasis, and explores avenues for future research.

Serum zinc and pneumonia in nursing home elderly
http://www.ajcn.org/content/86/4/1167.full
Compared with subjects with low zinc concentrations, subjects with normal [jl comment: and that's just 'normal', never mind optimal] final serum zinc concentrations had a lower incidence of pneumonia, fewer (by almost 50%) new antibiotic prescriptions, a shorter duration of pneumonia, and fewer days of antibiotic use (3.9 d compared with 2.6 d) (P ≤ 0.004 for all). Normal baseline serum zinc concentrations were associated with a reduction in all-cause mortality (P = 0.049).

a test would be really great to see whether a short-term megadose therapy @100mg/d might be required.

another awesome antiviral: selenium. selenium status has shown strong association with whether HIV patients live or die.
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Tue May 29, 2012 8:07 pm

ugh i just looked at your photo lol. far from the worst photo i've seen - omg google image search is horrific - but if you do have pus in there you'll need to drain it.
can you tell me the specific brand and product name of the zinc and castor oil cream you're using?
also would you consider stopping the d3 for a week, to let the zinc do its thing without that influence at all, regardless of timing?
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby stillfighting » Tue May 29, 2012 8:20 pm

I really believe one would throw up the amount of zinc your speaking of taking. If they did keep in down, the would eventually become low on copper. Then become anemic. Too much of one results in a loss of another.
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