Wahls diet discussion

A board to discuss various diet-centered approaches to treating or controlling Multiple Sclerosis, e.g., the Swank Diet

Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Tue May 29, 2012 9:00 pm

when i originally asked my doc for a zinc test, the result came back 8.6 umol/L. then the doc instructed me to take 100mg zinc per day for one month to correct the deficiency. she may have called my naturopath to get that recommendation, since they are steps away from each other, but i don't know.

anyway i tried taking 100mg in one go, each day, and later told her it made me sick to my stomach. so she said take 50mg, twice a day. it worked. however, i was on and off with it, and ended up doing it for three months to get up to what i figured amounted to 30 total days of supplementation. i can't remember what my levels got up to but it could have been 19 or 20 umol/L, around there.

all that happened in the end, was i got way healthier :) i learned about the copper balancing on my own later, and therefore my long term zinc supplements include copper to ensure that a balanced cu:zn ratio is maintained. i'd have to go back over my files for dates and details, but i do remember thinking it odd that my copper levels went UP after i fixed the zinc deficiency. there's a complex interrelationship going on there.

copper zinc balance is a fundamental indicator of human health. in study after study looking at copper zinc balance in health and disease, the sick people have high copper and low zinc. possible some ms patients also have lower copper levels. another reason why bloodwork is important.

cancer example showing high copper wrt zinc (from regimens-f22/topic2489-345.html#p191978 )

A STUDY OF SERUM ZINC, SELENIUM AND COPPER LEVELS IN CARCINOMA OF ESOPHAGUS PATIENTS
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/conten ... l.pdf+html
......................Se (ng/ml)...Cu (ug/dl)...........Zn (ug/dl)
Control Group..145 ± 47.....108.69 ± 16.47.....87.17 ± 6.43
Patient Group..112 ± 32.....142.16 ± 18.72.....75.20 ± 5.57

so when you look at the spread between copper and zinc averages in controls, compared to these cancer patients, you can see the cu:zn ratio is way higher in patients.

ms examples

The possible role of gradual accumulation of copper, cadmium, lead and iron and gradual depletion of zinc, magnesium, selenium, vitamins B2, B6, D, and E and essential fatty acids in multiple sclerosis
http://www.medical-hypotheses.com/article/S0306-9877(00)91051-X/abstract

Zinc and copper in multiple sclerosis.
http://jnnp.bmj.com/content/45/8/691
The serum concentrations of zinc and copper were measured in 50 patients with multiple sclerosis. Lower serum zinc levels were found compared to age- and sex-matched controls. In younger patients low serum copper concentrations were noted. Zinc concentrations in CSF were unchanged. The possibility that malabsorption of the metals causes the low serum concentrations is discussed.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby stillfighting » Wed May 30, 2012 3:17 am

I have had MS nearly 30 yrs. I am still walking very well. I have learned one thing. Anyone can be who they want to be. They can say anything they want here on the internet. I have seen many crazy cures come and go. I really hope this person seeks out the best information they can. I hope and pray they get the help they really need. That is my last word on this. I hope you can sleep at night.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Wed May 30, 2012 5:48 am

fortunately basic nutrition is not a crazy cure, but rather a prudent foundational step with decades of published science to back it up, and new information emerging all the time. healthy diets are wise, (that said i have my own definition of that and don't follow any particular 'ms diet' currently out there, but instead a sort of hodge-podge klenner/mateljan/reinagel/weil approach), but imho the individual patient needs to monitor the actual effects of diet and supplement regimens in the blood, to ensure they're on the right track. once nutrition has done all it can for a person, then of course it's time to seek further medical interventions as needed.

can't find the exact abstract i wanted, one that talks about diseases previously thought to be genetic actually having nutritional origins, but these are making a similar enough points, so until i find the other again...:

Nutrigenomics: From Molecular Nutrition to Prevention of Disease
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16567153
"Until recently, nutrition research concentrated on nutrient deficiencies and impairment of health. The advent of genomics—interpreted broadly as a suite of high throughput technologies for the generation, processing, and application of scientific information about the composition and functions of genomes—has created unprecedented opportunities for increasing our understanding of how nutrients modulate gene and protein expression and ultimately influence cellular and organismal metabolism. Nutritional genomics (nutrigenomics), the junction between health, diet, and genomics, can be seen as the combination of molecular nutrition and genomics. The diverse tissue and organ-specific effects of bioactive dietary components include gene-expression patterns (transcriptome); organization of the chromatin (epigenome); protein-expression patterns, including posttranslational modifications (proteome); as well as metabolite profiles (metabolome). Nutrigenomics will promote an increased understanding of how nutrition influences metabolic pathways and homeostatic control, how this regulation is disturbed in the early phases of diet-related disease, and the extent to which individual sensitizing genotypes contribute to such diseases. Eventually, nutrigenomics will lead to evidence-based dietary intervention strategies for restoring health and fitness and for preventing diet-related disease. In this review, we provide a brief overview of nutrigenomics from our point of view by describing current strategies, future opportunities, and challenges."

Nutrigenomics: the Rubicon of molecular nutrition
http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/ ... 02-8223(03)01380-4/abstract
The success of the Human Genome Project and the powerful tools of molecular biology have ushered in a new era of medicine and nutrition. The pharmaceutical industry expects to leverage data from the Human Genome Project to develop new drugs based on the genetic constitution of the patient; likewise, the food industry has an opportunity to position food and nutritional bioactives to promote health and prevent disease based on the genetic constitution of the consumer. This new era of molecular nutrition—that is, nutrient-gene interaction—can unfold in dichotomous directions. One could focus on the effects of nutrients or food bioactives on the regulation of gene expression (ie, nutrigenomics) or on the impact of variations in gene structure on one’s response to nutrients or food bioactives (ie, nutrigenetics). The challenge of the public health nutritionist will be to balance the needs of the community with those of the individual. In this regard, the excitement and promise of molecular nutrition should be tempered by the need to validate the scientific data emerging from the disciplines of nutrigenomics and nutrigenetics and the need to educate practitioners and communicate the value to consumers—and to do it all within a socially responsible bioethical framework.

Nutrigenomics: goals and strategies
http://nutrigene.4t.com/muller%20nrg1047.pdf
In the past decade, nutrition research has undergone an important shift in focus from epidemiology and physiology to molecular biology and genetics. This is mainly a result of three factors that have led to a growing realization that the effects of nutrition on health and disease cannot be understood without a profound understanding of how nutrients act at the molecular level. First, the completion of several large genome projects has markedly altered the research agenda by drawing attention to the importance of genes in human nutrition, and has provided a wealth of new genetic information to be explored1–3. Second, there has been a growing recognition that MICRONUTRIENTS and MACRONUTRIENTS can be potent dietary signals that influence the metabolic programming of cells and have an important role in the control of homeostasis. Third, nutrition researchers have increasingly started to recognize that genetic predisposition can be an important contributor to the main causes of mortality that are linked to diet, such as cardiovascular disease, diabetes type II and cancers.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby stillfighting » Wed May 30, 2012 10:11 am

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6471270 You don't read the tags at the end of your studies very well.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby dc10 » Wed May 30, 2012 11:17 am

JL,

Specifically what blood tests are essential for the reasons previously mentioned?
i live in the UK, but there are several private labs that perform blood work

do you see any reason why a nutrient rich diet & supplements are not sufficient to treat and potentially cure a pilonidol sinus?
- i also take low dose Naltrexone (LDN) every night, have been for several years, which has stopped the deterioration , well until recently due to the p.s - that's if, it is in fact permanent damage and not just transient

as i first had p.s symptoms july last year (but asumed it was a sports injury, so left it), and again over the last month, and this time have noticed pus on my underwear when i wake, doesnt this suggest the pus is draining itself?

surely this prevents the need for surgery, as im also eating the Wahls way, taking LDN, and the supplements i listed

I appreciate everyone is different, but Dr Wahls cured herself from being incline wheelchair/scooter bound on intensive nutrition and NMES (i also use an NMES device)
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Wed May 30, 2012 1:05 pm

stillfighting wrote: That is my last word on this.
hehehe
stillfighting wrote:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6471270 You don't read the tags at the end of your studies very well.


an aptly named study on zinc toxicity. reviewing the abstract, 300mg of elemental zinc per day is certainly an 'excessive intake'. how did they get 11 healthy suckers to voluntarily overdose at 7.5x the tolerable upper intake levels, yikes.

a 50mg zinc citrate pill delivers 15mg elemental zinc, so when you take 100mg per day you get 30. plus whatever's in food and a multi. 1/10th of the dose described in that toxicity study. CORRECTION i think they often label pills with the elemental number. so when you take 100 mg per day you'd get 1/3 of the amount used in the toxicity study.

more studies...

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/drug ... l/982.html
What dose is used?
The following doses have been studied in scientific research:
BY MOUTH:
•For treating the common cold: one zinc gluconate or acetate lozenge, providing 9-24 mg elemental zinc, dissolved in the mouth every two hours while awake when cold symptoms are present.
•For diarrhea in malnourished or zinc-deficient children: 10-40 mg elemental zinc daily.
•For preventing and treating pneumonia in undernourished children in developing countries: 10-70 mg/day.
•For hypogeusia (sense of taste is abnormal): 25-100 mg zinc.
•For the eating disorder anorexia nervosa: 100 mg of zinc gluconate daily.
•For treating stomach ulcers: zinc sulfate 200 mg three times daily. [jl note: that's ~50 mg elemental zinc for a total of ~150mg per day]
•For muscle cramps in zinc deficient people with liver disease: zinc sulfate 220 mg twice daily. [jl note: 50mg b.i.d = 100 mg elemental zinc]
•For osteoporosis: 15 mg zinc combined with 5 mg manganese, 1000 mg calcium, and 2.5 mg copper has been used.
•For sickle cell disease: zinc sulfate 220 mg three times daily. [jl note: total 150mg elemental zinc]
•To increase growth and weight gain in children with sickle cell disease who have not reached puberty: 10 mg elemental zinc per day.
•For treating attention deficit-hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) in children: doses of zinc sulfate 55 mg (15 mg elemental zinc) to 150 mg (40 mg elemental zinc) daily.
•For treating acne: 30-135 mg elemental zinc daily.
•For treating age-related macular degeneration (AMD): elemental zinc 80 mg plus vitamin C 500 mg, vitamin E 400 IU, and beta-carotene 15 mg daily.

studies of excessive dosages and impacts....

Health Risks from Excessive Zinc
http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/zinc-H ... fessional/
Zinc toxicity can occur in both acute and chronic forms. Acute adverse effects of high zinc intake include nausea, vomiting, loss of appetite, abdominal cramps, diarrhea, and headaches [2]. One case report cited severe nausea and vomiting within 30 minutes of ingesting 4 g of zinc gluconate (570 mg elemental zinc) [80]. Intakes of 150–450 mg of zinc per day have been associated with such chronic effects as low copper status, altered iron function, reduced immune function, and reduced levels of high-density lipoproteins [81]. Reductions in a copper-containing enzyme, a marker of copper status, have been reported with even moderately high zinc intakes of approximately 60 mg/day for up to 10 weeks [2]. The doses of zinc used in the AREDS study (80 mg per day of zinc in the form of zinc oxide for 6.3 years, on average) have been associated with a significant increase in hospitalizations for genitourinary causes, raising the possibility that chronically high intakes of zinc adversely affect some aspects of urinary physiology [82].

luckily no-one is suggesting 570mg, 450, 300, 150, 80 or even 60mg elemental zinc here, and what does go in is not going in without proper copper balancing.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Wed May 30, 2012 1:09 pm

hi dc, for bloodwork, if you can get it, ask for serum zinc. the units are μmol/L. not RBC zinc, either. it's a better test, but i can't compare it to much. and not 24 hour urine. just serum zinc, plain and simple.

other interesting 'nice to have' items would be 25(OH)d3, uric acid, and copper. but if you can afford just one (those prices!!) then make it zinc.

if the pus is draining itself, good. i don't see any reason why diet and supplements would not be enough, but you'll have to see.. the bloodwork will be the key. if your zinc status (and anything else you can test) came back optimal and we could see it on paper, but you still had a problem, then you'd need to consider other interventions.

i will have a closer look at your meal info, to see if i can find any other tweaks you could implement that might help. in the meantime have fun with those shrimp and scallops :twisted: hehe

if you get a zinc test, don't take ANY zinc for the week beforehand, so that you get a clean read.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby dc10 » Wed May 30, 2012 2:24 pm

Thanks JL., i will look into getting the following tests in the near future:
Serum zinc, 25(OH)d3, uric acid, and copper

why are uric acid results needed? if mine are too low/high, can food/supplements rectify the deficit?

do i have the one week off vitamin D3 and copper as well as the zinc , one week before bloods being taken?

that would be great if you can assess my diet, however this is a rather vague description, so if you need a more specific diary, just say

i really hope the nutrition/supplements cure the pilonidol sinus, either way its gotta be better than several bouts of surgery and antibiotics and still not curing it!
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Wed May 30, 2012 2:54 pm

hey there, sounds good!

i think in order of importance, zinc, and 25(OH)D3 are higher priority than copper and uric acid.

you want to have a healthy copper zinc balance, but zinc is the more likely to be off in ms patients (or most other kinds of sick ppl). copper's more of a 'nice to know' rather than a 'need to know' imho (as far as that opinion has been developed to date, at least)

uric acid is also known to be low in ms patients. zinc and uric acid levels are positively correlated. yes you can correct it, in my experience, with zinc. other approaches such as inosine do not address the broken urea cycle that is the underlying reason for low uric acid in ms patients. so uric acid is really just another 'nice to know'. if your zinc is good, your uric acid should be too.

serum magnesium could actually be more useful than either copper or zinc. but i would have to go back over your description of symptoms and check if it sounds like magnesium could be involved. high d3 intakes have seriously messed with my magnesium levels in the past, overwhelming inputs of mg from food and supps. but again i have to go back to review your symptoms.

i'll see what i can do with your diet info as is, but if you can start working on weights that will help no end.

and whatever you test, that's what you don't take for a week beforehand. i only specified zinc before, because i was saying if you can only get one test, make it zinc.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Wed May 30, 2012 3:12 pm

okay yea see if you can get zinc, magnesium and d3. in that order of importance if you have to space them out over time. hope you can find some reasonably priced tests.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Wed May 30, 2012 3:54 pm

putting your diet info so far in one place:

Breakfast - fruit smoothie, includes 4-5 different fruits excluding citrus , + 1 dessert spoon nutritional yeast + flaxseed oil + spinach

Lunch - 1 cup of leafy greens (kale, spinach, cabbage, lettuce, etc), 1 cup of sulphur veg (brocolli, mushrooms, onions, cauliflower, asparagus), 1 cup of colors (peppers, turnips, beetroot, grapes, radishes, carrot) + nutritional yeast + various seeds (pumpkin, seasame, hemp, flax, sunflower seeds - half a desert spoon of each) + mug of green tea

Dinner - Chicken or salmon + 1 cup of leafy greens (kale, spinach, cabbage, lettuce, etc), 1 cup of sulphur veg (brocolli, mushrooms, onions, cauliflower, asparagus), 1 cup of colors (peppers, turnips, beetroot, grapes, radishes, carrot) + brewers yeast + various seeds (pumpkin, seasame, hemp, flax, sunflower seeds - half a desert spoon of each)

i have a chicken bone broth three times per week, usually as a stew with the needed vegetables
i stopped eating nuts about two weeks into the diet as i assumed this was why my eczena was getting worse, but it continues not to heal, so i might go back on nuts
i sometimes have salmon/tuna with lunch as well.

so i'm thinking if you could do a very specific and detailed diet diary for three days, that would be the best thing for me to review.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby stillfighting » Wed May 30, 2012 4:24 pm

You did not even read the study. If you will search the net There are many people complaining about you.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Wed May 30, 2012 4:37 pm

you must have missed this part of my earlier post:
jimmylegs wrote:an aptly named study on zinc toxicity. reviewing the abstract, 300mg of elemental zinc per day is certainly an 'excessive intake'. how did they get 11 healthy suckers to voluntarily overdose at 7.5x the tolerable upper intake levels, yikes.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby stillfighting » Wed May 30, 2012 4:42 pm

Nothing I posted said anythin g about 300 mg. I am done with you. If you want to misguide people go ahead. I hope you don't kill someone in the process.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Wed May 30, 2012 5:42 pm

ok you did mean this url right?:
stillfighting wrote:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6471270

"Eleven healthy adult men ingested 150 mg of elemental zinc twice a day for six weeks."
150mg x 2 = 300mg elemental zinc daily.

so that would be like taking an entire gram of zinc citrate every day. 1000mg rather than the 50 we're talking about, or the 100 my doc has recommended in the past.
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