Wahls diet discussion

A board to discuss various diet-centered approaches to treating or controlling Multiple Sclerosis, e.g., the Swank Diet

Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby dc10 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:06 am

thanks JL,
Also if you could comment on taking the Candex supplement i posted the information about, would be appreciated :)
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby stillfighting » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:12 am

dc10 if your worried about candida might I suggest food sources of really good probiotics. If you can get into making your own that is better. When your system is in good shape it will really take in the nutrients from the food you eat.
Start slow
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby stillfighting » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:47 am

dc10, go do some reading on probiotics from homemade kraute from organic cabbage. It is very easy to make. Kefir too or to order and buy.
Once the system is "order" it absorbs nutrition from food really well. Supplementing is not "as important.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby dc10 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:20 pm

Stillfighting,

i take this probiotic every day:
http://lifeplan.co.uk/products/Multidop ... ?prodID=64
this contains 4 billion friendly bacteria , i thought this was a sufficient daily dose

i eat organic cabbage usually once a day
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:35 pm

ok dc - i have a lot of work to do you your posts.

re candex, i used to have chronic candida issues right up until i fixed my deficient zinc status. no longer. you need a GI environment that is inhospitable to bacterial and fungal overgrowth. zinc helps get rid of the baddies without killing off beneficial microflora. for me, candida is an absolute non issue nowadays.

there was a time when i needed to take probiotics but my system is healthy enough that i'm okay without taking them on a regular basis any more. when i took them i bought udo's choice or similar, usually.

i'll be back with a reply to your diet diary (thanks for doing that).
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:08 pm

heres a 3 day diet, but my food weighing scales weren't working, so can only give an approximation:
...
i started the wahls diet 6 and a half weeks ago. I drink 1 litre of bottled Caledonian Still Natural Mineral Water throughout the day. The juice added to the smoothies is pure, no additives juice. I drink 2 smoothies a day because i am concerned with the tiny amount of calories consumed, but would happily avoid the second smoothie, if not necessary. Am i eating too much fruit? i know it contains fructose/natural sugars and im sure in big quantity are not good
I make sure i eat 3 cups of leafy greens, 3 of sulphur veg and 3 of colours every day. I eat chicken liver once a week, and a chicken or ox tail bone broth 3 times a week
I usually eat free range chicken one day, then salmon or tuna steak the next day, then chicken again the next day, then salmon again the next day, etc
I am quite concerned with my current weight, i have always been slim. i am male, 5' 10", before the diet i weighed 137 pounds, i just weight myself and i'm 127 pound, i don't get hungry, i am getting lots of nutrition from this diet, much more than a western diet would, eating 5 times as many calories. What are your opinions of my wahls diet?

Day 1
AT 8;45 DRANK SMOOTHIE = 1/4 MELON/KIWI/FROZEN BLUEBERRYS N STRWBERRYS, BLACK FOREST FRUIT, MANGO / CUP SPINACH/ SPOON NUTRITIONAL YEAST , 2 TSP FLAXSEED OIL/MANGO PAPAYA JUICE


ok i am using 100g raw canteloupe, GI=3 IF=43 O3=46mg O6=35mg,
kiwi, 1 medium without skin, GI=3, IF=14, O3=32mg O6=187mg
blueberries, 1oz (28g) (approx 20 berries), GI=1, IF=-5, O3=16mg, O6=25mg
strawberries, 1oz (28g), GI=0, IF=5, O3=18mg, O6=25mg
black forest fruit - i don't know what that is
mango, 1 fruit pitted and peeled (207g), GI=10, IF=-19, O3=77mg, O6=29mg
spinach, i'll assume it's raw?, GI=0 IF=78, O3=41mg, O6=8mg, protein 0.9g
nutritional yeast, 16g, GI=1, IF=NA, O3=ND, O6=ND
flaxseed oil, 2tsp, GI=0, IF=100, O3=7200mg, O6=1757mg
mango/papaya juice - i don't have data on this

ok that's just the calcs on day 1 meal 1 - i will total it up later. need to flake out for a while! at some point i'll go through all that and look at the protein component too. klenner protocol for ms recommends a high protein diet with 2-3 eggs for breakfast. made sense to me as a short term measure, since it was logical that my protein status would be subpar as a long term vegan.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:43 am

okay so given the assumptions i've made and the incomplete data, the smoothie looks great from the IF standpoint. not bad on the O3 to O6 ratio, even without the flax. with the flaxseed oil in the mix though, you're set. it trumps everything else!

the GI total is 18, that's creeping up on 20% of your daily max without the missing data, so keep an eye on that one.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:57 pm

AT 12;45 ATE A FLAT MUSHROOM + A GREEN PEPPER + 2-3 CUPS OF KALE WITH NUTRITIONAL YEAST + TEASPOON OF EACH: PUMPKIN, SEASAME, HEMP, SUNFLOWER SEEDS + 1/2 GLOVE GARLIC + CHIVES + 1/2 GLASS BOYSENBERRY JUICE


all right, here we go:

portobello 121g, GI=3, IF=-3, O3=ND, O6=242mg, protein 5.2g
green pepper, 1med 119g, GI=2, IF=37, O3=9.5mg, O6=64mg, protein 1g.
kale, boiled, w salt, 2c (260g), GI=3, IF=452, O3=134mg, O6=103mg, protein 2.5g
nutritional yeast, 16g, GI=1, IF=NA, O3=ND, O6=ND
pumpkin seed, roasted, 1oz (28g) (i only have data down to 1oz so all these following numbers should likely be significantly lower: GI=10, IF=-79, O3=22mg, O6=2474mg (!!!), protein 5.2g.
sesame seeds, 1 tbsp (adjust down from this minimum available serving size), GI=0, IF=-3, O3=34mg, O6=1924mg, protein 1.6g
hemp seed ND
sunflower seeds, 1oz (28g) (smallest serving size option avail), GI=0, IF=11, O3=21mg, O6=6454mg, protein 5.8g
garlic, 1 clove, 3g, GI=0, IF=107, O3=.6mg, O6=6.9mg, protein .2g
chives, raw, 1tbsp, GI=0, IF=11, O3=.4mg, O6=7.6mg, protein .1g
all i can give you re boysenberry is numbers for sweetened canned berries...
boysenberries, heavy syrup, GI=8, IF=-51, O3=23mg, O6=45mg, protein 1g

SO, again given that we can't be perfectly accurate, wrt inflammation factors, your kale and garlic are champs for balancing pro-inflammatory foods like the boysenberries and pumpkin seeds.
your nut/seed mix looks tasty, but a bit out of whack on the O6 side - basically canceled out the morning's flaxseed oil and then some (although the second smoothie would fix it right up directly). alternatively, if you drop the second smoothie, you could consider adding walnuts and/or flax seed to this mix to make sure you keep the O3s nice and high.

as for GI, this meal is tough due to the data that's not available or has mismatched serving sizes, but let's ballpark total GI to 15.

total protein, again just ballparking, let's say 13g for this meal.

i think if you want to bulk up calories without the smoothie, that things like avocado, more root veg, and more nuts could be possibilities - just watch that O6/O3 ratio.

going to stop for now. looking forward to analyzing that ox tail bone soup. all the root veg. i really like the wide variety of foods you're getting in.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby ceowings » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:00 am

i have had spms for 6 years- in a scooter for 3. I have just heard of the wahls diet and having never really started any MS diet, would like to try it, but don't know where to begin.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:28 pm

hi c, a lot of the alterations involved in the wahls diet include boosting nutrient-dense foods, and removing pro-inflammatory, zinc-depleting foods.

personally i do not follow the wahls diet (in my particular case, no diet that involved exclusion of red meat, dairy, egg etc made sense - i hadn't consumed them in over a decade when i became ill). everyone's different! but one thing i did start to exclude was processed food. so i started cutting out things like commercial salad dressings and sauces, which i had been used to using to perk up vegan stir fries, curries etc. i had previously gotten rid of processed meat and dairy alternatives (which turned out to be part of the reason i got sick, but that's another story)

anyway. there will be plenty of other folks here who can chime in and give you wahls diet details.

@dc, i'm going to go back through that lunch above, and assess zinc content
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby dc10 » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:00 pm

Hi JL,
thanks for that detailed analysis, if it makes your life easier you don't have to be so specific with nutrients
but i have noted all your comments,

pro-inflammation foods - i had no idea the boysenberry juice and pumpkin seeds would be pro-inflammatory, i will stop consuming these,
are the sesame, hemp or sunflower pro-inflammatory?

bare in mind my supplement list, so i also take 2000mg of omega 3 fish oil daily

If the seeds/nuts are high in O6 i will happily remove them if it's better to

thanks again JL for doing this :) please say if you think i should add anything to my diet, or remove



ceowings, on Amazon here's a review on Dr Wahls book that's a clear breakdown of the diet rules, see here:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews ... ddFourStar
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:53 pm

hiya! i do want to go through your diary and analyze for zinc content, even if it's just one meal. just because.

also you'll do fine dropping the boysenberry juice i think, but you had better keep the pumpkin seeds in there for the zinc. sesame is very slightly pro-inflammatory, sunflower is anti, for hemp i have no data.

you have to be careful that you're not throwing out the baby with the bathwater when you cut foods. it's all about balance, you don't want to cut O-6 foods, you want to make sure O3 foods are high enough to match. and you don't want to cut pumpkin seeds bc they're inflammatory, or some nuts b/c they're high in O6 - you just need to balance them against another healthy food that is anti-inflammatory, and that way you get the beneficial nutrition in the nuts.

of course this doesn't carry over to 'i can eat cake and pop as much as i want as long as i have enough salmon' but in the case of nutrient dense whole foods, i think balancing is better than elimination.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby dc10 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:22 am

thanks JL, all noted :)

i've just realised several of the supplements i take contain cellulose. which i've read, does contain traces of gluten,
do you feel traces of gluten from the supplements i take would be detrimental to my wahls diet recovery?

the diet does emphasise avoiding gluten.

JL, to save yourself the time , could you just point out any foods in my 3 day diary i should
cut down on or increase, to follow the wahls diet more stringently

By the way, RE: my Pilondial sinus - the soreness i originally felt when sitting is virtually gone,
however my walking has only very faintly improved, but sometimes is the same bad state

the nocturnal enuresis has worsened - it's gone from once a week to EVERY night now,
i put this down to the sinus and associated infection, but dont understand why now though when before puss was draining.

-on that note, there still is raised skin above/around the sinus, (i think is puss under the skin) which just seems to move around under the skin when checked in the morning & night,
the sinus is no longer sore/enlarged its smooth, a bit red and has a sight opening, just unsure why its now not draining the remaining puss (raised areas of skin)
... new picture: http://tinypic.com/r/34nquir/6
the red mark you can see above the sinus appeared a few days ago, and leaks a light red sultion when i check the bandage after waking,so not sure if its a cut, or puss?

do you know of any natural/herbal remedies to drain or clear this puss under the skin?

- i really dont want to resort to surgery as patients still regularly relapse + the awful pain from the wound for weeks/months... no thanks
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:26 am

hiya! re cellulose in supplements, sounds negligible and if you're balancing against zinc intakes properly, you should be able to consume some gluten.

i haven't read the wahls diet, but like many other gluten free diets, it doesn't appear to clarify *why* patients might need to avoid gluten. i've said it before and i'll say it again, based on my own literature review, it appears that gluten consumption would contribute to the low zinc seen in ms patients, with a wide variety of impacts based on zinc dependent processes not having enough ingredients available for optimal functionality. hence the low uric acid, poor vit d3 absorption, intestinal permeability, etc etc etc.

it goes against the grain with me to make purely dietary recommendations without any bloodwork to assess efficacy. i'll look at the zinc content in your diet and we'll see what we see. i have to go back over our conversation and see if i have any other questions too.

i can't specifically hypothesize about symptoms related to walking and noctural enuresis, all i can do is review your diet and recommend bloodwork so that you know how your diet and supplement regimen is actually affecting your various nutritional indicators. if we know all the diet and nutrition is optimized and there are still symptoms left, it's time to look elsewhere for causality (or possibly into nutritional details i haven't found out about yet).

it does sound to me as if the sinus is still infected, and my tendency is still to look at zinc as a major underlying factor.

as for natural/herbal remedies, here we go with my other branch of academic study... although i consider diet and nutrition foundational to health, and plant medicine a pharmacological band-aid solution at best... with that caveat in place, traditional medicine suggests that a poultice of crushed fresh broad leaved plantain (plantago major) may be useful in drawing unwanted material out of wounds. i have always considered it more of a first aid solution for a dirty cut, but you could try it. what i just said about plantago major is just some of the info i've learned by word of mouth. from the literature:

The traditional uses, chemical constituents and biological activities of Plantago major L. A review.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10904143
Abstract
"Plantago major L. leaves have been used as a wound healing remedy for centuries in almost all parts of the world and in the treatment of a number of diseases apart from wound healing. These include diseases related to the skin, respiratory organs, digestive organs, reproduction, the circulation, against cancer, for pain relief and against infections. P. major contains biologically active compounds such as polysaccharides, lipids, caffeic acid derivatives, flavonoids, iridoid glycosides and terpenoids. Alkaloids and some organic acids have also been detected. A range of biological activities has been found from plant extracts including wound healing activity, anti-inflammatory, analgesic, antioxidant, weak antibiotic, immuno modulating and antiulcerogenic activity. Some of these effects may attribute to the use of this plant in folk medicine."

p. major is very common in north america (except in nunavut apparently, but i wonder if that's just a gap in reporting data):
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?sym ... 02_ahp.tif

so feel free to mash some of that up, but while you can find it everywhere, you might want to choose a more natural area for harvesting, and wash the leaves carefully, so that you have a little more certainty that you're not also applying lawn care chemicals or air pollutants onto an open wound.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:42 pm

hi again, one other thing, sorry if i asked this before but what is the form of your 50mg zinc supplement?
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