Wahls diet discussion

A board to discuss various diet-centered approaches to treating or controlling Multiple Sclerosis, e.g., the Swank Diet

Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jv » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:39 am

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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:54 am

wow, that is interesting when so much about nutrition and ms HAS been studied. extensively. in humans.

"How did you come to focus on nutrition?
I began reading the scientific literature on lab animals, because research in animal models of disease is often 20 or 30 years ahead of clinical practice. From this reading, I gradually reached the conclusion that mitochondria [the power plants of every cell] are involved in all of the brain disorders involving shrinking of the brain: Huntington's, Parkinson's, Lou Gehrig's, dementia. Even though MS hadn't been studied, I decided that mitochondria are probably important in this disease as well."
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby Gogo » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:22 am

agatha wrote:Hello there
I've been doing a paleo diet which I now realise is very similar to Terry Wahls' suggestions for about 18 months. Prior to this I did the Wheldon antibiotic protocol and this was very helpful in stopping my MS progression but I have noticed further increases in energy and general health since eating paleo. I base my diet around meat, fish, eggs, organ meat, shellfish, veggies, fruits, coconut, butter, dark chocolate, nuts, olive oil, herbs and spices. No grains, milk, cheese, legumes, sugar, processed food. My diet is around 60% fat by calories. My recent lipid profile was very good and my BP is great. I previously tried the Swank diet but this made my illness much more aggressive - I think I ended up with deficiencies of fat soluble nutrients. The high levels of fat in my paleo diet have led only to beneficial changes for me.

Since starting the diet my energy is much improved, my heat tolerance is much better, I am no longer cold all the time, my skin is less dry, brain fog has gone, I don't need my reading glasses any more (for presbyopia), I have lost weight, my complexion is a healthier pink colour instead of greyish yellow, better infection control, chronic bladder infection is almost healed, nails are stronger, exercise tolerance is better. Hooray for real food!

Reading the forums it looks like different ones do well on different dietary protocols - I guess we all need to experiement until we find what suits.

Hope this encourages some of you.
best wishes
Agatha



Reading the forums it looks like different ones do well on different dietary protocols - I guess we all need to experiement until we find what suits.


Agatha, I came to a different conclusion. The whole diet thing seems pretty silly. People select different foods based on their own belief and without any scientific evidence ( no double blind placebo controlled test). By the way, Wahls diet is not equal to paleo diet. What you eat has no merits according to the Wahls diet. Show me at least one neuro who thinks your diet can stop the progression of MS.
I am really happy that your lipid profile and BP is great, so what? Could you stop the progression of the disease for many years? Could you reverse it? Did you have a wheelchair that you do not need anymore?

Based on what you wrote I assume you have RRMS. I can tell you that most RRMS patients has ups and downs. Sometimes they improve without changing anything in their lifestyles and they might never develop to SPMS. If you can show that more people can avoid progression with any diet, then I believe you. Until then, it is just a

Since starting the diet my energy is much improved, my heat tolerance is much better, I am no longer cold all the time, my skin is less dry, brain fog has gone, I don't need my reading glasses any more (for presbyopia), I have lost weight, my complexion is a healthier pink colour instead of greyish yellow, better infection control, chronic bladder infection is almost healed, nails are stronger, exercise tolerance is better. Hooray for real food!

Yes, hooray for real food. :) I guess many MS patients would be happy if these were their only problems.


Please, someone show me that her EDSS score improved after her diet. Verified by a neuro who states that it is not the usual up cycle of the disease. At least Ms Wahls has a theory that she bases her diet on and she showed improvements. However, she still lacks replicating her success with others. She just collects and collects money for the trial that just never comes.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby vesta » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:11 am

Gogo, you are suffering from the Semmelweis Reflex. It took 20 years for Pasteur to come up with the germ theory of disease. So for 20 years Doctors, rather than wash their hands as Dr Semmelweis recommended, stuck their unsterilized hands up womens' vaginas during childbirth thus killing a fair number even though statistics revealed that his recommendations reduced childbed fever to near zero. Sometimes Science has to catch up with practice and rather than wait for God to give one permission to act we need to take matters into our own hands. I believe good Diet serves 3 purposes 1)reduces stress on the vascular system thus preventing blood reflux (CCSVI theory) 2) nourishes damaged brain CNS tissue 3) maintains vascular health. MS Cure Enigmas.net

AFTER DIAGNOSIS

Ideas to consider.

Once the diagnosis has come down, it's a demyelating disease, probably MS, step back and relax, at least you don't have a brain tumour. And stress and anxiety will only make matters worse. Imagine the blood backing up, flooding your brain and/or central nervous system. You have to stop that reflux as soon as possible. That means RELAX. All the diagnosic tests in themselves are stressful, so step back from all that and begin to inform yourself.
Marc Stecker of Wheelchair Kamikaze believes that the immunosuppressive drugs developed over the last 20 years are the best treatment now available since they appear to have slowed disease progression for relapse/remit cases. That might be true if that is the only choice. But that isn't the only option available although it's the only one the Neurologist will offer. Neurologists are treating an immune system reaction to a blood reflux. They are treating a secondary problem. Consider treating the original problem instead. But to do that you will have to take matters into your own hands.

I believe a major illness is a call to change. Either one participates in the transformation, or one will be transformed against one's will. I also believe true healing requires a healing partnership. The best healer acts as a faclitator in one's own self transformation, not as a director. The worst thing one can do is act like a passive object on whom an omnipotent Doctor works his "magic". Waiting for a magic "cure" or for neurologists to realize that MS is not an autoimmune disease means waiting until one is totally paralyzed or dead. Now is the time to act.

Refer to the previous blog entry - MS Cure or Control: A Review

1) First, Stop the "attack" which is actually a blood reflux. I've found a neck massage forcing the blood down towards the heart is enough to stop one for me. An Acupuncture trreatment - the Gall Bladder Meridian and Bladder Meridian must be treated (see Acupuncture blog entry) - has worked for me. Your problem may be structural, so a Chiropractic or Osteopath's adjustment on the Atlas and upper cervicals might release the brain fluids. The Neurologist might have a drug which will stop the attack, though I wouldn't take something that you can't get off of after the crisis is passed. (My own early experience of an MS attack meant 6 weeks - 2 weeks of "attack" (the blood must be flooding the CNS), 2 weeks of "scarring" where the myelin dries up, and 2 weeks to recover most of lost function, leaving some deficits.)

2) Once the crisis is passed, get busy on finding a practical solution. First off, analyse what stress factor triggered off the attack. Was it emotional, professional pressure, or some kind of poisoning such as too much aspartame? Keep a journal and note whatever issues trigger off a problem, play the detective in your own life. Then make the necessary adjustments.

3) Consider the TOXICITY factor. Stop Aspartame and other food additives at once. (Don't bother with the mercury dental amalgams, at least not at first. Having them removed can even increase the toxicity if badly done, and there are many other factors to consider first.) Assume you have a gluten intolerance. Check out the Paleo-Macro diet here. I favour Kinesiology to determine the ideal personalized diet, but a good therapist may be difficult if not impossible to find and for some the method (muscle testing) may appear akin to witchcraft. So find a good naturopath/nutritionist.
DETOXIFICATION should be part of the therapy.
SUPPLEMENTS (besides the vitamins A, B Complex, C, D, E, include Calcium Magnesium, Omega 3, Zinc, Evening Primrose Oil,) There may be more, this is a quick from memory list to be completed.
IMPORTANT: I believe in the early Remit/Relapse phase one has the greatest chance to entirely heal the myelin sheath/nerve damage before it has actually dried up into a "scab" or scar. I did so within 4 years of the first big "attack". But now for me it is a question more of preventing further degradation.

4) Consider the STRUCTURAL factor. This means consulting with body manipulators such as Chiropractors or Osteopaths. Dental misalignment may be an issue. Once the area of blockage is identified, you may be able to treat yourself regularly with massage, stretching etc.

5) ANGIOPLASTY decision. Begin by seeking NON-INVASIVE diagnosis of your veins. A quick look on Google brings up a clinic called Privatescan in Brussels which claims to use non-invasive CCSVI investigation techniques and diagnosis protocols - CT Scanner from G.E., CT venography with contrast agent, EchoDoppler Duplex from GE, 3.0 tesla MRI Scanner (MRI venography) with G.E. contrast. (I need to research this further, but so can you. I'm not promoting any clinic or therapist for angioplasty. If anything, I believe angioplasty should be tried only if all else has failed. see Angioplasty Decision blog ) If you decide on angioplasty, it is imperative that the Doctor use an INTRAVENOUS ULTRASOUND to open the stenosed veins so he can see what he is doing and avoid injury to the vein wall.
If one has a serious vein obstruction, deformation or the vein is simply missing, angioplasty appears the only solution. It of course would be grossly unfair to imply one hasn't tried to heal if the veins are defective or even missing. It would be like admonishing an amputee that if he really works on it the arm will grow back. Of course it won't. Annette Funicello very generously and courageously published a video showing how far her disease had progressed as well as the results of an angioplasty procedure. One jugular had been entirely blocked, the other 70% blocked. She and her husband Gene Holt believe this is the only treatment which has helped her over the past 25 years of illness and she wants to promote the CCSVI theory to help others, believing if she had been treated years ago she wouldn't now be paralyzed.

IMMUNOSUPPRESSIVE DRUGS- If one has a serious physical vein blockage which causes a blood reflux, probably one will require medication to minimize CNS damage until angioplasty can release the blood flow. In this case the Neurologist would seem to be the best therapist. Tricky issue.

I want to encourage the newly diagnosed to act in their own self interest. MS isn't a death sentence, it's a call to change, the sooner the better and with you as an active participant.
These remarks are above all an admonishment to myself for having let myself fall apart after my first dramatic healing. A kick in the butt you might say. But now that the CCSVI theory is on the table, we have every possibility to take control of our fate. And in the first instance, that means ME. I'm now going to finish my personal history with particular emphasis on MY MISTAKES.

MS Cure Enigmas.net
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby Gogo » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:51 am

vesta wrote:

4) Consider the STRUCTURAL factor. This means consulting with body manipulators such as Chiropractors or Osteopaths. Dental misalignment may be an issue. Once the area of blockage is identified, you may be able to treat yourself regularly with massage, stretching etc.

5) ANGIOPLASTY decision. Begin by seeking NON-INVASIVE diagnosis of your veins. A quick look on Google brings up a clinic called Privatescan in Brussels which claims to use non-invasive CCSVI investigation techniques and diagnosis protocols - CT Scanner from G.E., CT venography with contrast agent, EchoDoppler Duplex from GE, 3.0 tesla MRI Scanner (MRI venography) with G.E. contrast. (I need to research this further, but so can you. I'm not promoting any clinic or therapist for angioplasty. If anything, I believe angioplasty should be tried only if all else has failed. see Angioplasty Decision blog ) If you decide on angioplasty, it is imperative that the Doctor use an INTRAVENOUS ULTRASOUND to open the stenosed veins so he can see what he is doing and avoid injury to the vein wall.
If one has a serious vein obstruction, deformation or the vein is simply missing, angioplasty appears the only solution. It of course would be grossly unfair to imply one hasn't tried to heal if the veins are defective or even missing. It would be like admonishing an amputee that if he really works on it the arm will grow back. Of course it won't. Annette Funicello very generously and courageously published a video showing how far her disease had progressed as well as the results of an angioplasty procedure. One jugular had been entirely blocked, the other 70% blocked. She and her husband Gene Holt believe this is the only treatment which has helped her over the past 25 years of illness and she wants to promote the CCSVI theory to help others, believing if she had been treated years ago she wouldn't now be paralyzed.


I want to encourage the newly diagnosed to act in their own self interest. MS isn't a death sentence, it's a call to change, the sooner the better and with you as an active participant.
These remarks are above all an admonishment to myself for having let myself fall apart after my first dramatic healing. A kick in the butt you might say. But now that the CCSVI theory is on the table, we have every possibility to take control of our fate.


Vesta,
the science has already stepped over CCSVI. Many studies disapproving the idea. Just show me one study verified by a neuro that shows significant improvements in patients who went through CCSVI procedure than in a blind controll group. Any??? What will hold the veins open after angioplasty? What will you do with scarring that will happen after angioplasty and with time it will make things worse.

Just show me at least one study that proves what you are saying. MS is a long-term illnes and people were doing different even in the pasts. However, no any evidence that any diet stopped the progression of the disease.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby vesta » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:33 pm

Science hasn't stepped over CCSVI, it hasn't been studied properly, there are many variables. (The vein narrowing may be due to pressure ON the vein than a problem IN the vein) And Neurologists don't want to cede their territory so they are doing everything in their power to impede and sabotage research. Semmelweis Reflex. I'm fully aware of the dangers of Angioplasty and for me it would be the last thing to do after all else has failed.
This site isn't working, I'll finish this tomorrow rather than lose what I've written.
I don't know what you do for treatment -suit yourself- but I'm not going to freeze up like a hedge hog and wait for Science to give me permission to take care of myself. To open your mind read some of my site, maybe MS Cure or Control: A Review dec 17 blog or 5 MS types or the main paper for that matter.
MS Cure Enigmas.net
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby CaliReader » Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:05 pm

Here is the trial.

Iowa is a long way for most to travel, but it would be a chance to try her method under her supervision.

http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/ ... s&rank=148

Ages Eligible for Study: 18 Years to 65 Years
Genders Eligible for Study: Both
Accepts Healthy Volunteers: No
Criteria
Inclusion Criteria:

Secondary or primary progressive multiple sclerosis
Some level of gait disability
Tolerance for test electrical therapy session
Successful completion of two week Run-IN phase completing the daily logs -
Demonstrating > 80% compliance with dietary and behavioral interventions

Exclusion Criteria:

Antiplatelet or blood thinning medication
Cognitive disability or psychiatric disorder making compliance with study interventions difficult
Implanted electronic medical device
Change in medication in the prior three months
Active cancer treatment (skin basal cell or squamous cancer is not an exclusion criteria)
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby prauly » Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:26 pm

I follow the Paleo way of eating, with a focus on some of the Wahls approach that I am familiar with. I see that there is both a Paleo AND a Wahls topic on this Diet board. I'm wondering what I am missing about Dr. Wahls approach. I do believe that her diet is Paleo -- correct? Granted, I do not have all of the facts on the Dr. Wahls approach but I do know that we need to eat at least 9 cups of vegetables per day, and 6 of them should be green leafy vegetables. I accomplish this by starting out with a huge green drink in the morning, made with my Vitamix, and consisting mostly of spinach or kale. Then I have a huge salad, usually kale or spinach, but sometimes other greens. At dinner, I always make an abundance of green leafy veggies -- and I usually eat most of them! If someone can help to outline any other differences between Paleo and Wahls, I would appreciate it......
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:41 pm

from what I understand dr wahls' approach is about mitochondrial function and appears to draw on aspects of paleo with emphasis on foods rich in nutrients particular to mitochondrial function. cruciferous vegetables as rich sources of sulfur, for example.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby pawel96 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:02 am

The problem with Wahls' diet is that it is not just a diet:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2769364/

Minocycline, supplements, etc. I love the idea of whole food, but you can't do her diet only and expect same results. Sorry.

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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:46 pm

personally, i don't bother with abx, metabolite or herbal supplements.. just nutrients. cant say i am following the wahls protocol per se.. just a hodge podge of things that work for me. ime supplements may be needed where diet can't achieve the right levels in the desired time frame, but have to be done with care and the proper respect for interrelationships interactions and synergies between nutrients in the body.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby pawel96 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:25 am

JL, I am not against her diet. In fact, I am so grateful for her idea of dairy/gluten free diet, it saved at least my job if not more. I just want to say, that people watch this famous video on YT, try to replicate her results and don't get better, because they lack this tiny important details. Mino has a very good penetration into CSF, it is antiinflammatory (not to mention some infection hypotheses).

Adding an immunomodulator like mino explains the saturated fat problem for me. You don't have to bother much about sat fat if you have antiinflammatory action from mino. In Jelinek/Swank approach you only have omega3s as antiinflammatories so obviously you want to limit sat. That's how I see it.

P.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:24 am

i'm not either, but i do have a slightly different approach targeting the same end result, ie measuring status of nutrients that help repair immune response to different foods or infections, rather than avoidance of whole foods, or use of drugs or herbal medicines. it can be highly effective.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby prauly » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:02 am

I would like to hear from those of you that follow the Wahls protocol. First, are you taking any of the MS meds in addition to following Wahls? How long have you been following and have you found that your symptoms and progression has been minimized? I'm seriously considering scrapping all western meds and following the Wahls protocol and corresponding supplements. If you do not wish to share within this board, please consider PMing me..... Thanks!
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby cg50in » Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:41 pm

Paleo diet for me. Gluten, lactose, legume, added refined sugar free. I eat fresh fruits and veggies, tree nuts, wild game ie venison and lots of fish, Sups include grape seed extract, tumeric, Vit D3, B12 and fish or flax seed oil and daily aspirin.
Small amounts rice and sweet potatoes for starch fix. Nuts also help and have all those trace minerals we need. Removing sugar was hardest. Like a drug withdrawal.
I know we are all built different like snow flakes but so far been in remission 3 yrs and med free knock on wood. Last 3 MRIs were no change so I am done with those for a while. Good thing as my insurance dropped the MS clinic I was attending.
Food bill is outrageous shopping outside the aisles. GL to you
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