Wahls diet discussion

A board to discuss various diet-centered approaches to treating or controlling Multiple Sclerosis, e.g., the Swank Diet

Postby KateCW » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:40 pm

Well I want "up from the chair" too! I have PPMS and have spiralled from high heels to full time scooter in 7 years. I would be happy to be using a walker in the house again. I never seem to realize any benefits from acupuncture, gluten avoidance, etc all the things others seem to. Maybe its because I am looking for more hard core improvement in mobility rather than subtle and more subjective symptoms like heat sensitiviy, fatigue, tingling, etc. Either I can lift my foot a couple inches into the shower or I can't, get off the toilet seat without help or not, etc. Its measurable.
Kathy, 49 with PPMS,full time scooter.
Married to a wonderful man, mother to a darling 9 yr old boy
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Postby maynaka » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:53 am

Kathy,

Believe me when I say I can relate to everything you're saying.

I was diagnosed in 84 and didn't use a cane till 2001. I was constantly on the go and in retrospect put my self under a lot of stress trying to "do it all".

Over the last ten years I have slowly progressed to using a walker for part of the day to needing a chair (just depends on the day).

I'm resigning myself to the fact that the road back is going to be long and arduous. I try to realize that the smallest of improvements is progress. Believe me, I count every little thing!

A lot has not worked for me...starting with bee stings way back to betaseron, avonex, rebif, antibiotics, ldn, chemo/steroids and tysabri. I currently am on baclofen and 4-ap (been on that since 2005). I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't give up easily!

It's a long road back to normal but what other choice do we have? We can't give up.
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Postby Selmahope » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:52 pm

Wow! Thank you for that reply Zinamaria-

You're diet sounds really good. Alot of it sounds similar to what I'm eating except for the whey protein (some say classified as dairy?)--so finding a good source for smoothie protein other than hemp seeds and nuts has been challenging. I'm also not eating eggs for now-- and I'm eating more grains than you. I feel I need them to feel full and need more calories to sustain my weight (which now is at 112 at 5'4'). I still miss the dairy on gf pizza or lasagna and of course the occasional cheese and redwine. At one point I was making my own goat cheese. I had subscribed to a combo of the blood type diet and nourishing traditions ideas for a long time-so I've recently added back having some fermented veggies to my diet. I have a cast iron stomach , but I must say sometimes the fermented veggies make my tummie feel a bit odd. I should try making my own since they are so dang expensive. Was to ill this past year to think about that, but now that I'm recovered somewhat I probably have no excuse.

In addition to the fibro and neuro stuff I also have MCS and the initial optic neuritis/progressive neuro stuff started during a period of high stress and having recently redone our hardwood floors (very smelly stuff)-and I often wonder if those chemicals contributed to the start of the progessive neuro symptoms/first major neuro attack 5 years ago. I try to stay away from all chemicals (pretty tough in our society) and I have a teenage daughter who I can't seem to convince to stop using all of her smelly hair products! At 15 she is also struggling with immune type issues-IBS/weak immune system, but I can't seem to convince her that the organic stuff is better and she doesn't need all the chemicals. She just wants to do what normal kids do. I feel bad for her.

I like your idea of the natural gingerale. In the past year or so I have not had any sweenters what so ever either. I read that idea on the body ecology diet website. I'll have to try it! Sounds good!

Anyway thanks again to all for your advice. I do feel it's possible to heal and stay well, we all just have to figure out how to crack the healing code!
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Postby ikulo » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:45 am

An hour-long interview with Wahls. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLPVsO8omy4
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Postby zinamaria » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:09 pm

Hi Selma,

I'm going to pm you...

z
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Postby StayHealthy » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:27 am

I would be careful of diets that want you to cut out an entire food group. Unless you have allergies or are found sensitive. best advise I was given was to eat healthy - which means no white flour or white potatoes and NO SUGAR . Sugar is the main culprit of many diseases. There are some very good grains so do your research - they can help keep blood sugar levels even. So to eliminate all grains doesn't sound good to me. Then you have to judge you your own body - what foods agree with you.

I'd also try to stay away from night shades that cause inflammation. Be wary of the fad diet that claim to cure MS - especially when they want you to cut out things that are healthy and do not mention cutting out sugar. eat healthy - look they are selling books and making money. I think as for dairy -yogurt is good for you . Processed cheese are bad. Low fat milk as long as milk agrees with you. Worth going to a nutritionist than listening to diet fads. Having them suggest a diet tailored to YOU your needs, your body .
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Postby Selmahope » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:48 pm

Hi Stay healthy!

I agreed with your theory up until the last 5 years. I was on a very healthy diet my whole life (little to no processed food)--and fanatically so the last 13 years- all local, organic, spelt in place of wheat, grass fed meats, organic teas, organic whole grains , ate seasonally, -all food groups--But my disease progressed from fibromyalgia to serious neurological. So I'm now open to this idea that one must exclude certain food groups or go to extremes like Dr. Wahl's diet or even a raw diet. Experimenting and trying to tune into my body. Food sensitivity tests differed between the 2 labs that my different doctors used. One showed an ELISA sensitivity to sweet potatoes and asparagus of all things! The other from a lab I never heard of from a lyme md- all kinds of sensitivites!

Anyway, it's a journey and mystery that will unfold I hope! It's one of the few things I can do==so I'm willing to experiment.

I wish I could live to 90 eating anything I want with repercussions. Maybe one day I'll get there! I am a lover of good and all food, so this experimentation is definitely a fast/sacrifice for me.
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Postby HunnyBunny » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:35 am

Hi I've been enjoying this post about diet or rather proper nutrition. I agree that no fad diet is right, just good proper sense. I've read "Eat-Clean Diet" and "Eat Right for your Blood Type", "Food and Mood", and we need a variety of foods for our health. I eat a lot of veggies; dark leafy greens, the darker the better for all all fruits and veggies), lean meats. I agree, no refined foods, white flour, white rice, refined sugars, pasta... I try to stay away from cheese, but I do love a melted Brie round with almonds & cranberries :). Whole grains or sprouted grains are the best. I am gluten intolerant, and I don't eat breads, I only eat brown rice, millet, buckwheat, quinoa, amaranth for my grains.

Anyway, the real reason I wanted to post is to warn you, as you mentioned you substituted spelt for wheat, that spelt is wheat. I know, when I first went gluten free I learned it hard way that spelt is wheat. Just thought you should know. If your intention is to go gluten free, I suggest you check out www.celiac.com . there are many hidden glutens that you might not be aware of.

Wishing you all well,
Amanda
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The Adventures Of Dave The Intrepid Gastronaut (Wahls diet)

Postby dkep11 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:56 am

MS has been hammering me since 1998 and nothing seems to slow it down. On 4/20/2011 I finally decided to go 100% on the Wahls diet. This is my 2 month (or so) report.

Dr Wahls' story is compelling. (see www.terrywahls.org) In 2007 she wasn't too far physically from where I am today. She changed her diet and by 2008 she could walk and ride her bike! That will get the complete attention of someone like me!

My version of the Wahls diet:

Lots of veggies, esp. sulfur-rich and leafy greens and bright colors.

Small amount of fruit, some grain (but no gluten!)(I do quinoa and rice), small amounts of meat (chicken, turkey, or seafood)(I avoid beef and pork).

ZERO gluten, dairy, sugar, yeast, legumes, red meat, eggs, processed food. I think the first 3 on this list are the important ones.

Low starch; I do eat half a banana or a bit of corn on occasion. But never a potato or potato chips.

Wahls is sort of the Swank diet of today, except I'd say it trades an emphasis on low-fat for an emphasis on veggies.

Wahls = Paleodiet + anti-inflamatory diet + extra veggies.

I started on this 100% on 4/20, so right now I'm on day 62, 2 months. Before, I was 90% on the diet - it isn't far from how I ate normally... but if you walked in with a pizza before 4/20 and offered me a slice, I'd have one. Today - no thanks.

For me, the hardest things to totally give up were pizza, bacon, and cheese. Pretty much everything else is EZ.

My wonderful wife Janelle is on board with the diet and the food prep - out of necessity; I can't do it.

I'm hoping for an ironclad effect by day 90; something I couldn't do on 4/19. I feel close to it now... or maybe I'm just trying to talk myself into it...

Do I tempt fate by explicitly testing? I haven't yet... I want to, but only if the answer is "YES"! 8) Today I think I would be impatiently jumping the gun. So for now I'll wait.

I have a specific test in mind: Can I transfer from the floor to my electric scooter completely unaided?

This is an ability I lost around January of this year, and I'd dearly love to get it back. For me, I'd love to get *anything* back; MS has been a 1-way downhill ride. Once I lose an ability, it is gone.

The best feedback so far has been the nurses at the hospital from my most recent stay in hospice (5 days every 5 weeks); several folks mentioned I seemed more energetic & looked better.

Either way, my motivation to continue the eating regimen remains strong.

Dr. Wahls says (in a email to my wife) it will likely take 3-4 months to see any changes & possibly more in my case since
1) My disability is fairly advanced. (edss 8 - 8.5)
2) I'm a man; in general, if you have MS, it's good to be a woman, guys often have a tougher progression. No one has a clue why.

I just added a daily green drink to my diet - Janelle has used Green Magma for years... it is most definitely an energy drink; I had my first one in the evening & stayed awake all night! I think I'll switch to the morning.

Go to www.vitacost.com & search on Green Magma & read the user comments; you too may become a True Believer! There are other brands to try too, and judging by the comments they each have a loyal contingent of followers.

So - bottom line, after 2 months of a strict diet - nothing tangible but hopefully I'm knocking on the door.

For me starting a new eating protocol was only tough the first few weeks. Then you adapt. Just don't bring a pizza into my room!

No matter how much willpower we may have, we'd prefer to never use any of it.
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Postby zinamaria » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:27 pm

Way to go dkep11, just keep telling yourself there will be changes! Changing diets is a lifestyle change and not like popping a pill, but I do believe we are what we eat, and that food plays a major roll with this condition.

I also believe what we tell our bodies is what they will want to do. Stay positive and to hell with the skeptics who question the idea of placebo, or whatever that is, the fact is, the brain will command the body and there is so much we can change by talking change to our body, and this is just my opinion, but I felt like encouraging you.

I was watching a Charlie Rose interview with a panel of neurologists, on the brain, and one was a Nobel recipient (don't remember his name) and he said in research they are now seeing that if they take a person who is paralyzed from stroke or some such thing, and hook him/her to a robot, and the person just 'thinks' about picking up a glass of water, the robot that is hooked to that person's brain will do it for him/her!!! Is that remarkable?

Anyway, I believe heavily in the diet changes, so good luck and keep thinking you will meet your goal, you will!

Zina
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Postby laura383 » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:56 pm

Hi Dave,

I tried to do Wahls, but couldn't manage 9 cups of fruit/veg (don't eat 9 cups of food in a day) so I just do a kale smoothie for breakfast and snack on fruit, have lots of veg (with protein) for lunch and dinner. Fruit for dessert.

It's Wahls-like, anyway. I've only been strict about 2 months. No changes yet, but I am also trying LDN (helping) and ALA (too soon to tell).
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The Adventures Of Dave The Gastronaut; Wahls diet day 80

Postby dkep11 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:45 am

MS has been hammering me since 1998 and nothing seems to slow it down. On 4/20/2011 I finally decided to go 100% on the Wahls diet. This is my 80-day report.

Dr Wahls' story is compelling. (see www.terrywahls.org) In 2007 she wasn't too far physically from where I am today. She changed her diet and by 2008 she could walk and ride her bike! That will get the complete attention of someone like me!

(she did other things in addition to diet changes, like eletronic muscle stimulation, meditation - but she thinks diet played the primary role in her recovery)

My version of the Wahls diet:

Lots of veggies, esp. sulfur-rich and leafy greens and bright colors.

Small amount of fruit, some grain (but no gluten!)(I do quinoa and rice),

small amounts of meat (chicken, turkey, or seafood)(I avoid beef and pork).

ZERO gluten, dairy, sugar, yeast, legumes, red meat, processed food. I think the first 2 on this list are the important ones, and #3 (sugar) isn't far behind.

Low starch; I do eat half a banana or some corn on occasion. But never a potato or potato chips.

On day 62 I began including a commercial daily green drink; we use Green Magma.

Wahls is sort of the Swank diet of today, except I'd say it trades an emphasis on low-fat for an emphasis on veggies.

Wahls = Paleo-diet + anti-inflamatory diet + extra veggies.

I started on this 100% on 4/20, so right now I'm on day 80. Before, I was 90% on the diet - it isn't far from how I ate normally... but if you walked in with a pizza before 4/20 and offered me a slice, I'd have one. Today - no thanks.

For me, the hardest things to totally give up were pizza, bacon, and cheese. Pretty much everything else was EZ; I don't have a sweet tooth. In the old days, I'd eat sweets occasionally but I never crave them.

My wonderful wife Janelle is on board with the diet (she ought to be; she found it and directed me to it!) and the food prep - out of necessity; I can't do it.

VVV new stuff VVV

In case you need more motivation to eliminate wheat,

Can eating this common grain cause psychiatric problems (mercola.com)? <shortened url>

Is it just me that thinks Mercola's headline-writer used to work for the Weekly World News? 8)

There have been many Wahls-like paleo-diets promoted recently,
Ex http://thepaleodiet.com/
and
http://www.nutrisclerosis.com/ - this latter one particularly interests me since it's a man with MS, and I think MS behaves very differently on men vs. women . So I have a Plan B to fall back on.

So we now have multiple instances of someone going basically paleo (cuz Wahls is almost paleo) and getting better...

So if on 12/31/11 I don't feel much better, I can jump into a closely-related diet. I do increasingly think diet is the key.

But I think I will feel better.

And speaking of that, I re-skimmed my Swank book; it's the earliest MS diet book I know (and is similar to what I'm doing), and I have a largely rhetorical (and snarky!) question for you MSers to ask your neurologists:

Given that the Swank diet offers a significant lessening of disease progression, documented by a medical doctor over hundreds of cases spanning several decades, why is it that upon my diagnosis, I was not told of any dietary option at all, but rather given only several ineffective (in my case, Avonex, Betaseron, and Copaxone) but expensive injectable MSdrugs to choose between?

I'll run that by my neuro the next time I see him. If you do also, I'd be interested in the response you get!

Dr. Wahls made another interesting comment on Facebook (we're friends donchano) to the effect that some folks get better on just no gluten / no dairy while others require a full paleo diet. Either way I'm months away from results.

Our girls just got back from California now cuz another set of grandparents flew them out - I may have Katie try making another batch of kale chips; I have a different idea to try out... if it works I'll tell ya all about it & if it doesn't we'll just pretend it never happened!

-Gastronaut Dave, over and out
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Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:32 pm

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-154319.html#154319

"She is prettty open on her facebook on what she eats and her regiment-she recommends 9 cups fruits vegtables /day- 3 cruciferous, 3 sulfur rich, 3 brightly colored (red, orange blue)not including starchy vegtables. No gluten, no dairy-she eats a modified paleo diet. LotsLots and lots of greens , kale, etc. some organ meat, 2-4 oz meat/day (organic. lean, grass fed , wild), I bought the book- it is good inspiration and gives more insight and more detail-but you wouldn't need it to get started. The estim-she recommends working with a physical therapist . She is also doing a clinical trial funded by the MS direct org right now.

Like everyone she has a family to support and I can understand her wanting to provide for her family and future especially with MS.
ee also is big into detox-sauna, clay to pull out toxins, meditation, exercise, exercising the brain - the whole enchilada to get well and reverse serious illness.

You don't really need the book to get started/implemented -but it is helpful a reference. Join her facebook and read through alot of the posts to get more detail. She is currently on a no grain diet, no diary, no eggs, no sugar etc- but she recommends no gluten, no diary to get started and food sensitivity testing similar to the MS recovery diet. In the end each individual has to fine tune the diet to your particular makeup. it is very similar to the BBD a starting point with an emphasis on lots and lots of vegtables-preferrably raw."
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question for jimmylegs-

Postby Selmahope » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:27 pm

HI Jimmylegs- question for you regarding your vegan diet since I"m so confused about the whole vegan versus paleo etc diets. Did you consume lots of vegtables/fruit in a given day or lots of calories from grain and fats? Also curious if you ate much raw? sugar etc

I'm confused since reading about the gerson therapy/diet, the china study, examples of recovery health such as Ruth Heidrich (she is a cancer survior, long term vegan/now raw vegan, iron man triathlete and still running marathons well into her 70's). It also seem that for people who had complete reversal of their symptoms in books I've read are mainly vegan-i.e. the book "who said so", some of the raw food recoveries etc--there was the case of mcdougall's recovery-but I can't find as many recovery and dramatic healings for MS or other illnesses on animal based diets. I know there are no clear answers--but curious about your vegan diet. I wonder if like anything it is the quality of the vegan diet versus vegan versus no vegan issue?

I"ve been on the blood type diet/nourishing traditions/candida /then gluten and dairy free and then wahls for 6 months evolving to a raw diet for the summer to see how that goes. I met a local woman who had a neuro disease (couldn' walk or talk) and completely recovered on a raw diet.

The journey continues...........it's been 13 years now.

(again I have no diagnosis for MS-just lots of classic progressive neuro symptoms-undiagnosed according to neuros, lyme accoridng to the LLMD's).
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Postby jimmylegs » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:22 pm

hi selma, i can answer this, but do you want to re-post in the paleo sticky first, or leave it here in the wahls sticky?

alternatively i could make a 'vegan' sticky i suppose, might be useful to some, but i'm not sure it's worth a sticky. thoughts?
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