Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possible?

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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:18 pm

sample copper values in research

The prevalence of low serum zinc level (<70 μg/dL [<10.7 μmol/L]) was 42.8%, and low serum copper level (<90 μg/dL [<14.2 μmol/L]) was <1%.
http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/ ... 5/abstract
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:08 pm

HI JL & lyndacarol,

what are your thoughts on my LOW red cell count, LOW lymphocytes and borderline low white cell count nd borderline low haemoglobin ?

do you feel these low/borderline low results indicate anemia?
- symptom wise, my legs are weaker, bladder more incontinent/frequent, feel more lethargic/tired, i have very cold hands,


- yesterday i started an Iron tablet daily(Ferrous Fumarate 210mg / 69mg elemental iron) so hopefully i should see improvements in the coming days/weeks as my iron levels increase
- i bought these myself as not due to see the dr till next week.
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby lyndacarol » Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:47 pm

dc10 – I do not have the definitive answer for your low counts. In my unprofessional opinion, your results could indicate anemia. The problem with MS symptoms – yours and mine and everyone else's – is that they are common to MANY conditions (for instance, thyroid problems). I can attribute mine to excess insulin; maybe yours could be, too.

If your problem is anemia, a daily iron tablet might make a difference. I would guess if you see no improvement with iron, then anemia is not your problem. I have heard that taking iron causes constipation in some people – that would be something to watch for. Certainly it is something to discuss with your doctor next week.

Perhaps jimmylegs could suggest foods that might help your low cell counts. I think that diet can accomplish MANY improvements in our condition. I admire your spirit and willingness to experiment with diet.
My hypothesis: excess insulin (hyperinsulinemia) plays a major role in MS, as developed in my initial post: http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-discussion-f1/topic1878.html "Insulin – Could This Be the Key?"
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:12 pm

hmm well for me it's been a loooong day and it's late so i'll be back tomorrow and for now i will say that iron and zinc compete for absorption so go carefully :)
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:12 am

okay once again i'm going to give details on copper deficiency and anemia.

the short form is this:
1. stop taking iron
2. get a serum ferritin test
3. keep taking copper
4. keep taking zinc
5. get more tests in a couple weeks

details on ANEMIA from LOW COPPER

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemia

Anemia (/əˈniːmiə/; also spelled anaemia and anæmia; from Ancient Greek: ἀναιμία anaimia, meaning lack of blood, from ἀν- an-, "not" + αἷμα haima, "blood") is a decrease in number of red blood cells (RBCs) or less than the normal quantity of hemoglobin in the blood.
Anemia is the most common disorder of the blood. The several kinds of anemia are produced by a variety of underlying causes.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/36472 ... nd-anemia/
Copper also is involved in the absorption and use of iron in the body. When copper is deficient in the body, symptoms of iron and copper deficiency become similar to each other. Often when anemia is suspected, health-care providers recommend iron supplementation and don't consider having you increase your copper intake to correct for anemia.

Copper Deficiency May Underlie Osteoporosis, Anemia and Neurodegenerative Disorders
https://holisticprimarycare.net/topics/ ... -disorders
Copper plays a key role in myelination of neurons, neutrophil activation, collagen synthesis, hemoglobin formation, and endogenous antioxidant synthesis. "It is a mineral that is greatly under-recognized and under-utilized," said Ron Grabowski, RD, DC, Professor of Clinical Practice at Texas Chiropractic College, Houston, and Director of Research for the American Chiropractic Association's Council on Nutrition.
Deficiency can manifest in many different ways including seizures and neurological problems, poor temperature control, connective tissue degeneration, bone mineral loss, pallor, anemia, and poor hair and skin quality. Several recent studies suggest that in addition to the well-recognized neural and hematologic sequelae, copper deficiency also has a role in diabetes and cardiovascular disease.

Copper and Iron Disorders of the Brain
http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10 ... Code=neuro
Copper and iron are transition elements essential for life. These metals are required to maintain the brain's biochemistry such that deficiency or excess of either copper or iron results in central nervous system disease. This review focuses on the inherited disorders in humans that directly affect copper or iron homeostasis in the brain. Elucidation of the molecular genetic basis of these rare disorders has provided insight into the mechanisms of copper and iron acquisition, trafficking, storage, and excretion in the brain. This knowledge permits a greater understanding of copper and iron roles in neurobiology and neurologic disease and may allow for the development of therapeutic approaches where aberrant metal homeostasis is implicated in disease pathogenesis.
...
i would be very careful adding iron when you don't have a ferritin result and you do have a low copper result AND, your zinc still needs to get higher but that's tough when adding iron into the picture.
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:33 pm

i see, thanks for sharing,

hmm so it may be down to just the low copper causing my low cell counts,
the paleo/wahls die i have been fo,oowig i rich in copper though, eating liver or oysters everyday (for past 7months) and more recently nuts and seeds too, all copper rich,
maybe i have problem with absorption and need to take digestive enzymes?
i have been taking 3x 2mg copper in the evening the last few days, and still take the 1x 50mg zinc picolinate in the morning,

i would prefer to stop the 2x iron tablets i have been taking last few days = 138mg elemental iron daily, but my legs do seem to be stronger a day or two after starting the iron,

hmm maybe i will stop the iron for say 5 days, and keep taking the 3x 2mg copper (and 50mg zinc pico)
should my legs get worse in/after these 5 days, then maybe i need the extra iron.
- - how long after stopping the iron which will be as of tomorrow, will the serum ferritin give an accurate iron reading? - should i still take the 3x 2mg copper leading up to the bloods being drawn?


the problem with bloodwork , is i cant afford to keep getting tests , plus ive become so disabled that it is so hard for me to leave the house (emotionally & physically) , even not possible at times, so this isnt easy for me.
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:52 pm

okay listen, just ask the doc for the ferritin test at your appt next week, maybe you can get the blood drawn then and there.

we already have baseline for copper and zinc so no worries for the immediate present. just get that ferritin number if you can.

from what i recall 69 mg elemental iron is over the top for one day's dose.. maybe around half that was what i used to take.

in the short term i would recommend having a long think about the merits of sticking with a diet that makes you feel so crap.

as for supplements, you could try taking copper, zinc and iron in divided doses spread out through the day, and at different times to reduce competition for absorption.

or you could just take a break from all that too. just eat protein, healthy fat, load up on some energy from gluten free complex carbs like sweet potato and quinoa

in the longer term, i would still encourage you to try to figure out a way to obtain some follow up testing, just to be safe.

hopefully you will feel better soon.
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:38 pm

okay,
do you know how long it takes (approximately) for this ferrous iron ive been taking the last 4 days, to be clear out of my blood/system?
- i need an accurate iron reading

looking at my other results, my B12 and folate were:
Vitamin B12 - 765 pg/mL - 191 - 663 - HIGH
Serum Folate - > 20.00 ng/mL - 4.6 - 18.7 (i assume is HIGH being >20 but they must've forgot to type it)

and when i read about IRON deficiency i read also B12 and Folate deficiency is common,
so the fact my B12 and folate are high, i cant hel-p but think maybe Iron is high too!
- now its probably too high, taking 69-138mg (69mg 1st 2days then 2x 69mg (138mg) for 2 days) of elemental iron.

and the increased copper i took is why im feeling better, it does make sense Jl, but as there several variables it makes it near impossible to work out,
but reding those articles you posted, it des suggest my low copper is th reson for my low red cell count

- why im still on the diet? this is my only hope, i have to get better, and people have claimed to on a paleo diet, so there must be another reason why im getting worse, and it seems to be down to my low red cell count = either anemia or the low copper levels
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:24 pm

heya, i would give it 5 days or so. what day is your doctor's appt next week?

and, yep re the connection between iron deficiency anaemia, b12 deficiency anaemia, and folate deficiency anaemia. i think copper deficiency anemia is a really really logical issue to address first.

Anemia and Neutropenia Associated with Copper Deficiency of Unclear Etiology
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... .20647/pdf
"We report on two otherwise healthy young adults with severe neutropenia and anemia secondary to copper deficiency of unclear etiology, which quickly resolved after supplementation with copper gluconate."

if you are comfortable with it, keep up both the zinc and increased copper.

the ferritin will have been competing with the copper and zinc so you're right about variables - tough to know what's going on exactly.

i have stated my problems with elimination diets for ms elsewhere. individual interpretation leads to wide variation for individuals. especially risky for folks who do not have the capacity to regularly measure the effects using bloodwork.

i hope you will consider increasing your intake of healthy gluten-free complex carbs such as sweet potato and quinoa; they should be just fine in the context of a basically paleo approach, and could help you to keep your weight on and your energy up.
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:39 am

thanks JL for your continued support. and putting up with me being a pain.

I am now going to have a small sweet potato or part of a butternut squash once a day, i need to get energy/carbs/calories to function properly, even though Dr wahls team state to have no more than 1 serving of starchy veg per week!!
from her website

Dr. Wahls feels paleo is the best way to eat. As such, she suggests limiting gluten free grains and starchy vegetables to one serving per week or less as to not promote the growth of 'bad bacteria' in the gut.


im really not sure how anyone can function properly and not lose excessive weight on the wahls diet if you have virtually zero carbs - and limiting starchy veg to one serving a week, as the wahls team suggests!


you said in another thread i could take four 2mg copper at different times of the day, say one with each meal.
so do you think this is a better method than taking say 3-4 2mg tablet with dinner, i thought it wasnt good to take zinc and copper together

my 2mg copper contains Cupric Sulphate Anhydrous, 5.2mg to provide 2mg Copper. so i will change this to copper glyconate, when im running out.
you posted before saying copper sulphate oxide was poorly absorbed, does the same count for curpic sulphate anhydrous?


my drs appointment is on Friday, but i dont want to rush for this test if i will get an inaccurate iron reading as the ferrous fumarate will still be in my system showing i have higher iron levels than i really do without it,
maybe i should hold off having bloods drawn till 2 weeks after stopping the iron?

when i mentioned B 12/Folate, i meant, as my b12 and folate levels were high. wouldnt that indicate my iron levels are high too?
im guessing the three are correlated.. so when B12 & FOLATE are high, its likely Iron is high too, or is that illogical?


reading your links and others it seems copper deficiency is commonly connected to anemia & low red cell count, ...as my copper count was low, this MUST be the cause of my low red cell count & problems!

but it does bring the question, how can my copper and zinc levels be low when im following such a nutrient dense diet in the wahls/paleo diet?

must i have a nutrient absorption defect? what are your views on digestive enzyme tablets - e.g. https://www.herbspro.com/shop/xq/asp/pt ... Detail.htm ?

thank you Jl
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:57 am

hi no probs. good idea re adding sweet potato and/or squash. i cannot believe that paleolithic humans were running around saying, only one sweet potato per week! if it works for dr wahls that's great. i don't expect she has the same energy demands as a paleo hunter gatherer. i expect most of us occupy a spectrum of energy needs somewhere between sedentary and hunter gatherer. we each have to find our own balance. that's my 2c anyway.

as for the copper. you can try something like taking the zinc before the meal and the copper after. i still think you should divide the doses throughout the day. your body can only deal with so much at one time. don't waste your money throwing in 4 caps at once.

what i said about forms before was this:
"absorption of copper from cupric oxide supplements is lower than that from copper gluconate, sulfate, or carbonate... " "copper gluconate, copper acetate, or copper sulfate, are more easily absorbed than copper oxides..."

cupric sulphate is not cupric oxide. gluconate, sulfate, acetate, citrate, are all forms that should be fine. don't worry about cupric vs copper in the name, from what i've read it's just 'oxide' you want to avoid.

you may as well get the iron test on friday. ferritin tends to be artificially high in chronic inflammatory disease anyway, so you always need to adjust down. if you are more comfortable waiting longer then do that. just be aware that it still may read a bit high.

we'll have to see about the correlation between your ferritin, b12 and folate. will be interesting to see how it pans out.

as for copper and zinc levels. perhaps you had extremely low levels of both in the first place and the diet is merely stockpiling in tissue and the nutrients haven't really had a chance to show up in serum yet. it took me years of daily magnesium supplements before i could go more than a day without supplements and not feel the effects.

for me, i knew i had spent 15 yrs depleting my hard and soft tissue resources, never mind serum levels, and that i would just have to be patient with the regimen before things would resolve as far as how i felt and how things looked at the lab. you'll get there :)

ask for urine ceruloplasmin if you like, to rule out wilson's. "Serum copper is paradoxically low but urine copper is elevated in Wilson's disease" that's just from wikipedia - i know next to nothing about wilson's.

what can you tell me about your diet and lifestyle *before* you started implementing dr wahls approach?
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:15 pm

Thanks JL,

i will divide my copper into 3 doses,
50mg zinc pico before breakfast, 2mg copper straight after breakfast, then 2mg after lunch (with other vits), and 2mg after dinner (with my other vits)
i will do this increased 6mg daily copper for 4 weeks and see what i notice
- i thought taking zinc and copper at similar times would cause absorption problems? i think i was advised to take one in morning and other in evening, but i could be remembering wrong

i will mention the urine test to my dr when requesting my iron levels are checked,

That does make sense about the zinc/copper taking years to load up inside of you, but the problem is i've been taking 50-100mg zinc glyconate and 2mg copper for the last 5 years, daily!
so there must be another reason for my low levels,
what do you think about taking a digestive enzyme tablet (the now foods super enzymes i posted ^), and see if this helps, which i think would indicate an absorption problem


By the way what do you make of these 2mg copper chelate tablets, they're very cheap, 300 tablets for $3! - http://www.amazon.com/Copper-300-Tabs-S ... rds=COPPER

too good to be true?



- diet before starting this wahls one, was fairly health ishh, western diet, eating dairy, gluten, sugar,
would hve a take-out fast food treat once a week, typical meals =
breakfast = 2 slices of wholemeal toast with margerine, jam or honey + bowl of cereal , not sugary
lunch = 2x slices brown bread sandwich with chicken or ham slices, lettuce , pickle or light mayo or bowl of pasta with bolognese sauce + pack of crisps/chips, banana/orange
dinner = - chicken lasagne (or) - spaghetti bolognese - chicken with pasta/rice/potato , each meal included small portion of vegetables.
pudding = something sugary like a small apple pie or small cake
* i avoided red meat.

i was walking up 2 flights of stairs 4-5 times daily, 2 steps at a time, ok strength,
now i only go upstairs once a day as legs too weak, and i crawl up the stairs, 1 step at a time on all fours,
its a big change, lets hope its just down to my copper deficiency
i was weight training three times a week, walking for about 30 minutes a day (throughout day),
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:58 pm

your plan sounds good. and, good re the ceruloplasmin test.

i think if you've been doing 100mg zinc fairly regularly with only 2mg copper, that could be the issue. when i see copper blended with zinc, it's often only 25mg or 50mg and 2mg copper.

still. i will have a look around and see if i can figure anything else out. i think your body should be making its digestive enzymes so i hesitate to recommend the tablets... can you give me an updated total daily supplement regimen too?

will have a look at those copper tablets. can't say off the top of my head.

ah you were a wheatatarian hehe, major zinc poor, zinc depletion diet that one!

just going to throw this into the mix since you mentioned weight training

Zinc Status in Athletes: Relation to Diet and Exercise
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/a ... 8/art00002
The nutritional habits of elite athletes during training and competition are quite different from the recommended diet in the majority of the population. Endurance athletes often adopt an unusual diet in an attempt to enhance performance: an excessive increase in carbohydrates and low intake of proteins and fat may lead to suboptimal zinc intake in 90% of athletes. Mild zinc deficiency is difficult to detect because of the lack of definitive indicators of zinc status. In athletes, zinc deficiency can lead to anorexia, significant loss in bodyweight, latent fatigue with decreased endurance and a risk of osteoporosis.

so fat and minerals huh.. cool my bacon and butter can stay LOL

Interactions among dietary fat, mineral status, and performance of endurance athletes: a case study
http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/catalog/46028
In a pilot study, performance measures and mineral metabolism were assessed in 3 male endurance cyclists who consumed isoenergetic, isonitrogenous diets for 28-day periods in a randomized, crossover design in which dietary carbohydrate, polyunsaturated, or saturated fat contributed about 50% of daily energy intake. Peak aerobic capacity [62 ml/(kg(.)min)] was unaffected by diet. Endurance capacity at 70-75% peak aerobic capacity decreased with the polyunsaturated fat diet. Copper retention tended to be positive only with saturated fat. Less iron and zinc were retained (intake - losses), and fecal losses of these minerals increased with the polyunsaturated fat. Blood biochemical measures of trace element nutritional status were unaffected by diet, except serum ferritin, which tended to decrease during consumption of the polyunsaturated fat diet. These preliminary results suggest that diets high in polyunsaturated fat, particularly linoleic acid, impair absorption and utilization of iron and zinc, and possibly magnesium, and may reduce endurance performance.
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:54 am

Well to be more accurate i was just takin 1x 50mg zinc pico with 2mg copper in evening, most of the time
the 100mg dosing was a while back when we experimented with higher doses, if you remember

i will give the digestive enzymes a miss then, anyway i dont get the common symptoms associated with poor d enzymnes like heartburn, vomiting and nausea.

that zinc info on exercise is eye-opening, just shame i can't lift weights anymore,

p.s. my legs for the last few days - since stopping the iron and increasing the copper, my legs have been very weak, i hope its not related / connected

thank you jl
Last edited by dc10 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:55 pm

heya, ok well we will try to figure it out. i remember your experiment with higher doses, including that you did feel better.... but the copper intake has to come up as well. tough balancing act.

re weakness i think you need to give it a few days. in fact, why don't you start a supplement washout today. for a nice clean read on any tests done this coming friday.

then, i think it's time to unpack and examine your version of dr wahl's dietary plan. for starters, anything good or bad to report re the sweet potato reintroduction? and, do you have a number for your average daily protein and fat intakes, in grams?
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