Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possible?

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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:11 am

i think im not going to the drs on Friday now,
i have a hospital appointment for an MRI scan on 28th (next friday) , by getting my bloods drawn at hospital the results are ready next day, but at the GPs , i takes up to 2-3 weeks!


would taking no vitamins (including copper) for 5 days leading to the test be wise though?
seeing as (i think) my low copper levels are causing my low red cell count (anemia) ?

my legs are just weaker since the same times of increasing copper and adding squash/sweet potato, so it could be the extra starch im eating, rather than the added copper
- i will just eat some sweet potato daily and avoid the starchy squash. and still take the 8mg copper, see what i notice
i dont have numbers of the protein fat but will try and work them out.
i follow the wahls diet to the word with no cheating, it was only a few days ago that i broke the rules by eating starchy veg above a limited amount,

how long do you think it would take for my red cell levels & lymphocystes to increase back into range, now im taking 8mg copper daily (split into 4 2mg doses) - its been 4 days so far, and my legs are very weak
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:07 am

hi adam, good idea re waiting for an appointment that gets you results quickly.

if the wahls diet works for you, i'm not sure why we're having this discussion... i'm strongly tempted to suggest you stop taking everything, ensure adequate dietary protein and fat, see how that feels, and then if and as necessary, re-introduce one supplement at a time. with a break of course, leading up to your bloodwork. and urine ceruloplasmin test.

as for the squash, i don't know where that came from anyway.. forgive me but did you possibly read 'squash' when i mentioned 'quinoa' earlier?

all in all, there are so many variables that it's hard to say how long it might take for things to resolve.
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:47 am

stop taking all the supplements? even the copper? i thought that was my problem, not enough copper

its weird because i am eating only healthy nutrient rich food, so am confused by the low copper /zinc reading, seeing as the veg/nuts/organ meat i eat is rich in copper - also that my other nutrients are high , as expected.
- i will ensure i have 5 days off all supplements before my tests though

what were your thoughts on this chelated copper supplement:
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson- ... g-300-tabs


oh i thought you suggested introducing squash too (butternut and spaghetti), my mistake


forgot to say before, my supplement regimen:

With breakfast = 50mg zinc picolinate, creatine monohyrate 5g (started few weeks ago as in dr wahls trials) in breakfast smoothie

After lunch = Calcium 300mg, Vitamin D3 5000IU, Vitamin B50, Omega 3 Fish oil 1000mg, COQ10 100mg

After dinner = Magnesium 300mg, Selenium 200mcg, Copper 2mg, Vitamin C 1000mg, Vitamin 2 400IU, Fish oil 1000mg, ocean kelp (recently started) 187mg

- now though im taking 2mg copper 4x daily, spread out throughout the day

am i right im remembering you had a problem with my vit e supplement?:
http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pages/ ... 623&cid=69

i can no longer afford the carlson e-gems vit e, so this is my alternative
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:22 pm

perhaps i did mention squash at some point, but i think not as recently as quinoa and sweet potato. actually i happen to be baking a squash as we speak :) whatever, either way, if you're feeling bad, something's not right.

it looks like there is not enough copper in your system, but it's hard to be sure. what if for some reason you are storing copper in tissue but excreting it in urine and for whatever reason it is not making an appearance in your serum levels? i can't hypothesize really, because i have not had issues with low serum copper myself.

i would like to see a urine ceruloplasmin assessment before i offer any more thoughts on copper supplementation products. i recently suggested copper to someone else who was feeling fatigued and anemic, and who also had been supplementing zinc while neglecting copper. although lab results are pending, the change worked in terms of how the person felt. since this is not the case for you i think deeper investigation is in order.

re the regimen, make sure you take some mag with the d3 ie at lunch and some away from the d3, ie at dinner or bedtime. might sound dumb, but you don't have a basic foundational multivitamin/multimineral in the mix.

i still think the best approach might be a break. why don't you prioritize each one, then after you do the washout for the tests, reintroduce little combos, one at a time, and do that one combo for a week before adding something new.

for instance, after testing go right back on zinc/cu. then wait a week. then add fish oil. wait a week. then add cal-mag-d3 and wait a week etc.

it's too hard to guess what nuance of your regimen is making you feel bad. i would reboot as it were, and try to figure out where the glitch is that way. just my 2c!
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:24 pm

more about vit e later, i'm on a crap computer til tomorrow, blech!
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:17 pm

heya, i was thinking - if you're up to it, let's try an experiment.

can you go over your records and try to create a timeline of new symptoms since 7.5 months ago when you started your version of the wahls diet? i'd like to see what your baseline condition was, plus when and how exactly things have changed since then. if you can remember.

sorry i know i already asked you about current diet fat and protein but it could be part of the big pic anyway so. homework homework ;)
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:39 am

interesting:

Controlling Copper
A brief survey of copper/zinc imbalance will show why this condition can be so serious. Copper is an essential trace mineral, but it is needed only in minute amounts. It works in a paired relationship with zinc, sometimes in complement and sometimes opposing. Copper is present in most foods, and is also absorbed from the environment.4,5 When zinc is present in abundance, and when there is enough quality protein available to bind it,6 copper can be handled freely, and the excess can be readily excreted trough the bile.7,8
When the diet is lacking in zinc and protein, however—and in fats to promote bile production —use of high-copper foods, and environmental copper, primarily ingested through our water, promote buildup of copper in our tissues.9 The late Carl C. Pfeiffer PhD, MD, formerly of the Brain-Bio Center in Princeton, New Jersey, has provided us with the most comprehensive overview of nutritional problems associated with copper and zinc in his classic study Mental and Elemental Nutrients.10 As he succinctly puts it, "Deficiency of zinc accentuates copper excess."11
Here we have a classic dilemma of the medical flight from traditional diets. In lighter diets generally, and in heavily plant-based diets in particular, zinc is sharply reduced relative to copper,12 protein is curtailed, and fat is provided scantily at best. The excess copper that builds up in tissues is in unbound, inorganic form,13 highly immobile and creates a low-level toxicity that interferes with many body systems. Particularly affected are the liver and digestion,14 which are already hampered by increasing deficiency of zinc. As bile function and digestive vigor decline, difficulty with meat and fat develops. Legions of light-diet and vegetarian adherents feel justified in their choices because heavier food becomes unpalatable to them.15
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby Anonymoose » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:51 am

Whoops. Guess I'll stop taking that copper I just started a couple of days ago. lol They are definitely correct about that heavier food becoming unpalatable too...

Can I get by on a mostly vegan diet if I somehow find a way to stomach happy pastured chicken eggs? My son won't touch an egg in a million years...does cheese cover enough?

(sorry to barge dc10)
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:12 am

hi anon, i can look into cheese and eggs. you can consider doing some calculations on your diet for fat (sat and unsaturated), protein, copper and zinc content.

as you know i started researching veganism for optimal health yrs ago and gave up - hence my current omnivorous status. however i know a lot more now and may have more success.

might be a good idea to start reading some of those referenced items in the blurb i posted. when i have more time i'll be back with the link. or you can do an exact phrase search on a chunk of it (that is all i'll end up doing when i have a sec later on) ttfn :)
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby vesta » Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:59 pm

Besides diet, Dr. Wahls is stimulating the bladder meridian on her back which stimulates the blood circulation from the head. She is doing more than diet, perhaps inadvertently she is treating CCSVI. You need to stop the blood reflux. As soon as I heard of Dr Zamboni's blood reflux theory CCSVI I asked for a neck message to push the blood out of my brain towards the heart and it worked. Maybe the drug you were taking somehow stopped the blood reflux. Anyway, you need to get that under control because it is damaging your CNS. Consider the following as well/

I believe Dr. Zamboni has discovered the problem – venous blood reflux or CCSVI – but not the sole solution. Detoxification and nutritional therapy coupled with circulation therapies and/or skeletal adjustments may suffice to cure or control MS without taking the risk of angioplasty.
I've concluded there are 5 basic MS types, all of which leading to a reflux of venous blood into the Central Nervous System.
1) CONGENITAL vein malformations. 2) DEVELOPMENTAL vein malformations. 3) AGING vein malformations 4) SKELETAL – Cerebrospinal fluid pressure. 5) TOXIC MS.

As for the current categories of Relapse/Remit and the various Progressive MS's, I don't believe these properly describe the problem and certainly don't point to a solution. The various immunosuppressive drugs developed since 1990 are used only for the Relapse/Remit phase, so once you've hit the Progressive stage, you might as well listen to alternative ideas.
CONGENITAL: This idea is favoured by Phlebologists and Dr. Sclafani. However, it doesn’t account for the epidemiological variations in geography, culture or gender. It certainly can’t explain the dramatic increase in Japanese MS cases over the past 30 years. However, obviously it can be one factor.
DEVELOPMENTAL: My beginning hypothesis was that stress (of many potential origins) damages the veins in the child's developing body so that once adult the veins can no longer accommodate the blood flow. Defects in the circulatory system impede if not outright block blood flow leading from the brain and spinal cord leading to MS "attacks" and subsequent paralysis. It is for this reason that MS first generally manifests during or after adolescence. Dr. Zamboni himself observed deformities in the veins in the back and neck of MS patients. These areas correspond to Acupuncture meridians which control blood/fluid circulation.
AGING MS: The third type develops with age. There is no reason why veins shouldn't harden and malfunction as a part of the aging process. When the valves in veins draining the central nervous system malfunction, blood backs up to injure the myelin sheath.

THE ANGIOPLASTY CURE has been suggested for these types of MS (Congenital, Developmental, Aging) characterized by varied vein malformations - stenosed (narrowed), twisted, exhibiting stuck or deformed valves, or just plain missing. The Italian phlebologist Dr. Zamboni launched the theory he named CCSVI. The treatment consists of threading a catheter through the affected vein and opening it with a “balloon” . Initially the Internal Jugular Veins, the Vertebral Veins and the Chest Azygos vein were treated. Other veins leading from the spinal cord are now treated as well. Development of the Intravenous Ultrasound has allowed Interventional Radiologists to see what is going on inside the vein, determine the appropriate size of the balloon to open the stenosed vein without scarring, and avoid various complications. Stents have been inserted into veins which collapsed after being opened. (Dr. Sclafani believes the early 50% failure rate in the Jugular vein angioplasty occurred because the balloons were too small to open the veins sufficiently.) However, if the balloon is too large it risks scarring the vein lining tissue (endothelium) which might lead to thrombosis – the vein being closed off entirely. There have been cases where, after the initial “liberation”, the vein closes off again and each subsequent intervention leads to more scarring and tissue damage. Some have experienced little if any improvement. (Not all the veins leading from the spinal cord are treated.) Some have found themselves in a worse condition after the angioplasty than before. (One woman reported that her veins shriveled up into useless dried out structures through which no blood could flow.) Risks include brain hemorrhage, blood clots, and stent migration into the heart. Presumably with experience and the development of new techniques and material the few early tragedies which have occurred can be avoided. (Already use of the IntravenousUltrasound has decreased the risk factor dramatically.)
Some have reported dramatic recoveries, often with stents inserted, at least 2 years after Angioplasty. They have been CURED. (I don’t know the longest post operative success story. Treatments began sometime in 2009.) The lives of some have been so transformed that they now wonder if they should declare themselves free of MS and therefore ineligible for disability benefits.

Nonetheless, while some have been apparently cured, the risks of angioplasty are real. Before rushing into the operating theater, consider first treatment of Types 4) SKELETAL and 5) TOXIC MS.

SKELETAL MS: A misaligned skeletal, bone or dental structure can actually restrict the free flow of cerebrospinal fluid which in turn can compress or impede venous blood circulation. Structural problems can be either congenital or developmental in origin (e.g. accidents.) Recent scientific studies have focused on the interdependent dynamic of brain "fluids", the blood and the cerebrospinal fluid (CBF) which bathes the Central Nervous System. Excess cerebrospinal fluid can actually "compress" or limit blood circulation, hence the interest of Chiropractors in adjusting the Atlas bone to assure proper CBF circulation. If the problem is SKELETAL, angioplasty would not be appropriate. In this case it is not a problem INSIDE the vein but OUTSIDE. Chiropractic, Osteopathic or Dental adjustment may suffice to release the brain fluids flow leading to CURE or CONTROL.

FINALLY THERE IS TOXIC MS.
I include in this category not only known toxins such as mercury in dental amalgams, aspartame, glutens and various food intolerances, but myriad microbes/viruses such as mononucleosis, epstein barr, chlamydia, lyme as well as various metabolic disorders such as toxic "gut" and diabetes. OK that's a big category. One might say I am being simplistic. BUT MAYBE IT IS JUST THAT SIMPLE. Whatever stresses the body in those individuals with a compromised vascular system may trigger the blood reflux into the CNS. Illness in childhood may damage the vascular system, stress including toxic stress may trigger the reflux. Toxicity itself may damage the veins. All these factors may stress the vascular system leading to a venous blood reflux. Detoxification, intestinal cleansing, and appropriate nutrition will reduce pressure on the vascular system as well as nurture the brain and heal nerve damage.
CURE: Some MS patients recover through diet cleansing and nutritional therapy alone. Some may have a "temporary" stress reaction to a toxic substance such as aspartame (or mercury in dental almagam fillings.) The reaction is "temporary" in the sense that once the toxin is removed, the MS symptoms disappear. I have even heard that removing glutens from the diet is sufficient to heal.
CONTROL: Dr. Terry Wahls (see You Tube Minding Your Mitochondria) presents another excellent example. She began her treatment by de-toxifying from the MS drugs which were poisoning her and then optimized her nutrition. Her recovery implies that her veins were not actually blocked, but tensed up enough to cause a reflux. Also, she stimulated her blood circulation by electrical stimulation of the bands of muscles on her back, in other words, the bladder meridian. Optimal Diet/Supplements serve two purposes. 1) to prevent stress on the vascular system which might lead to blood reflux and 2) heal damaged tissue.

In addition to nutritional therapy, most MS patients probably will require treatment to enhance blood circulation to prevent blood refluxes – massage, ayervedic massage, acupuncture, self acupressure, osteopathy, chiropractic, swimming.

Again, to make a long story short, Dr. Zamboni has discovered the problem – venous blood reflux or CCSVI – but not the sole solution. Detoxification and nutritional therapy coupled with circulation therapies and/or skeletal adjustments may suffice without taking the risk of angioplasty.

MS Cure Enigmas.net
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:51 am

thanks for the replies,
JL,
I will take time off supplements and see if i notice anything, maybe i am sensitive to one or more of them and i just dont realise it,
im just concerned stopping copper, knowing my red cells and lymphocytes are low / possibly anemic

re protein and fat, i eat 3 servings of meat every day, on average, and consume 1 tbsp of flaxseed oil with breakfast and 1tbsp of virgin coconut oil with lunch soup,
so these 2 tbsp alone must keep my fat intake high,
plus the 2000mg fish oil daily capsules, and the meat i eat.

re the controlling copper article, im quite concerned this 4x 2mg daily copper isnt wise,
but i have read the upper limit tested was 10mg daily was ok

the only thing that really changed since starting the diet is how strict i have been following it,
e.g. i started cutting out dairy, gluten , but still had some legumes and grains,
then as the months passed i removed legumes, and then later removed grains

so if anything these further eliminations should have helped me,...
hmmm maybe its just the lack of calories consumed thats worsening my legs/bladder...
but the copper deficiency/low red cell/lymphocytes count is still a possible reason for the worsening
- this makes most sense, low red cell count, so oxygen isnt going to the organs/brain properly = worsened symptoms (temporary till my red cells increase)

- Im thinking i might reduce my Copper from 4x2mg daily to just 2x 2mg daily, im worried of copper toxicity, ive been taking 8mg daily copper for 1 week now, and haven't noticed any benefit

or do you feel its worth sticking to 8mg daily for one more week = 2 weeks in total
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:12 pm

heya, i am only suggesting a short term break, so that you can reintroduce one variable at a time, to see what works and what does not.

do you know the weight of the average serving of meat for your diet? ie 2oz (48g) or 4oz (96g) or somewhere in between? that will help with protein and fat content analysis.

here's a good fat breakdown for 1tbsp flaxseed oil

Total Fat....................13.5 g 21%
Saturated Fat...............1.3 g 6%
Monounsaturated Fat......2.7 g
Polyunsaturated Fat........8.9 g

Total trans fatty acids
~
and for coconut oil

Total Fat....................13.5 g 21%
Saturated Fat..............11.7 g 58%
Monounsaturated Fat......0.8 g
Polyunsaturated Fat.......0.2 g

and i used sardine oil for the fish oil

Total Fat....................2.3 g 4%
Saturated Fat..............0.7 g 4%
Monounsaturated Fat.....0.8 g
Polyunsaturated Fat.......0.7 g

to my eye the flax, coconut and fish oils might be getting you half way. let's keep doing the math for other foods and see if we can get you up to 100% DV for either total or sat fat or both.
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:23 pm

oh ok, i guess a short break from supplements, including copper shouldnt hurt too much,
but how short a break are we talking here?

i will weigh the meat tomorrow, do you want the raw weight or cooked weight?

do you think its at all possible that by removing legumes and grains from my diet, could have caused this worsening?
or maybe not eating the legumes/grains resulted in my low red cells/lymphocyte / haemoglobin counts?
or just the low calories done it!

god knows!

do you feel i should continue taking the 8mg daily copper, or is the one weeks worth ive done sufficient to boost my cu levels?

thanks JL :) i'd be lost without your help and guidance
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:31 pm

how about a break until your hospital visit and next bloodwork?

just to be a pain, give me raw and cooked weights please :)

check out this general page on the 'world's healthiest foods' by category - including legumes and grains

http://www.whfoods.com/foodstoc.php

more specifically, here's a link to detail on one food, ie black beans

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... ice&dbid=2

i really want to get a proper count on your daily protein intake - hard to say right now which factors have landed you in your current pickle. so many variables.

my humble opinion: take a break from everything and focus on fine tuning the diet, figuring out the details, and getting some more bloodwork done. and that one urine ceruloplasmin test, to be on the safe side.

yw :)
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:02 am

but if i stop the cu till my blood test next week, it will just show me as deficient again,
i cant see the benefit in stopping the supplements when we already know im cu deficient ?
wouldnt it be wiser to continue taking the higher dose cu to see if its boosting my cu levels?

thats a great site, i didnt know legumes had toxic phytates, i thought it was just nuts that did

i will get those meat weights for you by this evening

besides that urine ceruloplsmin test, what other bloodwork are you referring to? (besides the serum ferririn)
also, why's the ceruloplasmin test so important?
its used to diagnose Wilsons disease "in which copper accumulates in tissues" , but im copper deficient, not toxic/overload.
"The main sites of copper accumulation are the liver and the brain, and consequently liver disease and neuropsychiatric symptoms are the main features that lead to diagnosis"
- i have neither of these symptoms, so i doubt my GP will authorise the ceruplasmin test,

reading through one of the articles you posted, it says:
" The most commonly identified neurological manifestation of copper deficiency was myeloneuropathy = 'any neuropathy that affects the myelin sheath"
isnt it a given, that i have low copper seeing as i have MS - demylination

thanks
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