Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possible?

A board to discuss various diet-centered approaches to treating or controlling Multiple Sclerosis, e.g., the Swank Diet

Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby lyndacarol » Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:41 pm

dc10 – I have a question for you; if my question is objectionable or "none of my business," please ignore it altogether.

Have you had at least one vaccination (using the BCG vaccine) against tuberculosis? If you lived in the UK as a child, this is required of school-age children.
My hypothesis: excess insulin (hyperinsulinemia) plays a major role in MS, as developed in my initial post: http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-discussion-f1/topic1878.html "Insulin – Could This Be the Key?"
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby bartman » Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:27 pm

If you had a coccyx infection and took antibiotic for 7 days, what infection did you have? What antibiotic did you use? It's possible you have lyme disease + babesia + other coinfections as Lyme is known to mimic MS. Very often when people get an infection and treat with antibiotic for 7 days and then get sicker, it could be a few reasons. First, you are killing the infection and a herxheimer reaction has occured which is the toxic result of killing the infection and clearing the infection from the body. Second, you may still have the infection because you didn't treat it long enough. Third, the 7 days you used treated one infection but brought out a new hidden infection to the forefront. This happens with Chronic Lyme disease and based on your Low RBC, and other symptoms it would lead me to suspect that in addition to lyme you may have babesia. Many people are misdiagnosed with MS when they really have these infections, I would suggest educating yourself about Lyme and coinfections and the controversy. This happened to my cousin who is now doing much better on antibiotics after being misdiagnosed for 13 years. Have you ever done the Wheldon Protocol for Cpn? You should look into it also, as it uses many of the same antibiotics to treat lyme. You may want to see an LLMD or lyme literate doctor for more complete and better testing. Anyway, just something else to look into to try and get to the source of your illness, I hope you feel better soon.

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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:24 am

lyndacarol,
i would have had all the vaccinations all UK children get, why do you ask?

Bartman,
i dont know what infection i had on the coccyx but it was c,early due to the location being so near the anus and so must have come in contact with feces,
i took 7 days of oral flucloxacillan, with no herx reaction but after the 7 days the dr cheked the lesion and said it wasnt infected now.

I have been down the lyme route, and saw a LLMD, with no success
- but i never had the classic lyme symptoms in brain fog, cognitive problems, etc.
i had a negative western blot, so then in 2009 had an LTT-MELISA test which came back positive,
so i first went down the natural remedy route = rife machine (doug coil), colloidal silver, salt & vit C, these all had zero affect on me/no herx or improvement, so then went on oral combination (pulsed) abx(cefuroxime, azithromycin & tinidazole) again with zero effect / no herx or improvement so stopped after one month as couldnt sleep due to an itchy head/hair, possibly due to an allergic reaction, no herx signs.

so i gave up on the lyme route, none of the treatments helped nor did they give the expected herx then improvements,

i did have a short herx (i think it was) (lasted 10 hours) 1 month ago when i woke in the early hours with my legs so weak, and this was gone by the time i re-woke, but this is more likely to be candida die off,


JL,
would you be able to share your opinion on the questions i asked in my last post please :)
p.s. your diet sounds tasty!
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby lyndacarol » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:34 am

dc10 wrote:lyndacarol,
i would have had all the vaccinations all UK children get, why do you ask?

Please read the following thread, especially the first two posts: general-discussion-f1/topic20767.html?hilit=BCG vaccine

This Harvard researcher, Dr. Denise Faustman, is using the BCG vaccine to get more insulin production out of the pancreas (which is helpful to type I diabetics). I believe it causes overproduction of insulin in someone who has a normally functioning pancreas in the beginning.

Your pancreas is obviously NOT producing too much insulin in response to your diet (the Wahls diet). But I suspect your pancreas IS producing too much because of this vaccine. I believe your pancreas is malfunctioning; it may be inflamed, even enlarged; your doctor can test to see if you have an insulin level greater than 4 UU/ML – other testing can "see" the size of your pancreas.
My hypothesis: excess insulin (hyperinsulinemia) plays a major role in MS, as developed in my initial post: http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-discussion-f1/topic1878.html "Insulin – Could This Be the Key?"
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:56 am

yes i think the low carb diet could be part of the problem for you. my poorly balanced diet leading up to dx was definitely a contributor to my symptoms.

Optic neuropathy in ketogenic diet.
http://bjo.bmj.com/content/63/3/191.short
Abstract
A symmetrical, bilateral optic neuropathy is reported in 2 patients being treated with ketogenic diets for seizure control. Laboratory tests suggested a thiamine deficiency, and both patients recovered normal visual function after several weeks of treatment with thiamine. The risk of optic nerve dysfunction occurring during the treatment with a ketogenic diet can be minimised if routine vitamin B supplements are given and periodic evaluation of optic nerve function undertaken.

The Ketogenic Diet for Intractable Epilepsy in Adults: Preliminary Results
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract
nutritional side effects such as renal stones, disordered mineral metabolism, optic neuropathy...

Similarities of Carbohydrate Deficiency and FastingI. Weight Loss, Electrolyte Excretion, and Fatigue
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article ... eid=568995

maybe you could add in some more vit b rich food before adding more supplements. (careful with tuna; there's the bioaccumulation issue to worry about)

b1 list http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... t&dbid=100 (this list is virtually all legumes)
b2 list http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... nt&dbid=93
b3 list http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... nt&dbid=83

hth!
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:03 pm

Lynda,

I had the BCG when i was 15 , i remember,
but looking at the symptoms of low blood sugar / hypoglycemia, i only have one or two which could just be from my lack of calories consumed,
Lets say my pancreas is producing too much, is treatment effective?
what would you expect from it?

what do others think of the fasting blood insulin test? is there not other ways i can check for this?


JL,

I am now thinking of transferring to the SWANK diet,
which seems a healthier option, low sat fats, no red meat, lots of fruit & veg, seafood , allows grains,
i can just replace the two serving of red meat i eat weekly to just chicken or salmon,
it will be like a mixture between wahls-swank,

it seems i can eat a lot more calories/carbs on the swank diet too,
does anyone see problems in the SWANK diet?

this could explain why i got worse on the Wahls/Paleo diet:
http://intelligentguidetoms.wordpress.c ... sis-worse/

- even though there is a lot of legumes for B1 . before the list it says:
"Asparagus is an excellent source of vitamin B1. Very good sources of vitamin B1 include crimini mushrooms, spinach, flaxseeds, tuna, green peas, and Brussels sprouts."

and i eat these veg regularly (besides peas/tuna), and 1tbsp flaxseed oil daily

thank you
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:12 pm

heya, well i don't know if i buy what that article is saying b/c i ate no meat or animal products whatever prior to dx, never mind red meat. i was practically fat free. no cheese. no dairy. no nuts. i just can't get on board with any ms diet that shares characteristics with my pre-dx diet. the best things i have found are the inflammation rating system, and the nutrient density info. i never used to eat anywhere near the amount of dark leafy greens i actually need.

i don't always stick with it but as a plan for dinners, i try for red meat, veg, fish, veg, poultry, veg, repeat. sometimes on a veg night there might still be a little meat. like stir fry nights. most of the food is brown rice, onions garlic ginger mushrooms peppers broccoli cashews and peanuts and sesame seeds etc. but i might put a few bites of chicken in there.

game meat is the best red meat, my 2c. i am fortunate to have access to venison, bison, etc. it's all about moderation and variation. my diet is the BIODIVERSITY DIET a little bit of everything :D

you have to watch the ratings on the whfoods site. look at the amounts and the percent of daily value. if you eat 10 cups of asparagus that would be enough b1 for a day.
not to mention, it's rather hard to say if you're getting/absorbing enough b1 from those sources on the low carb diet. perhaps absorption will improve once you get some complex carbs in ya. you might want to see if you can get a b1 test.

i had hot italian sausage soup for lunch today, and split pea soup with a grilled cheese sandwich for dinner GRILLED CHEESE OMG EVIL lol i need to go eat some sort of vegetable. or eat veggies all day tomo.

yw and ttfn :)
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby lyndacarol » Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:04 pm

dc10 wrote:Lynda,

I had the BCG when i was 15 , i remember,
but looking at the symptoms of low blood sugar / hypoglycemia, i only have one or two which could just be from my lack of calories consumed,
Lets say my pancreas is producing too much, is treatment effective?
what would you expect from it?

what do others think of the fasting blood insulin test? is there not other ways i can check for this?

dc10 – The BCG vaccine uses LIVE, attenuated (weakened) bacteria. I suspect these bacteria take up residence in the pancreas and cause it to produce too much insulin. A high insulin level can cause hypoglycemia when it sweeps too much blood sugar (glucose) out of the bloodstream.

After a period of time of this excess insulin coursing through the body, cells become insensitive (also called "resistant") to it and the insulin loses its ability to take glucose out of the blood. As a result, the blood sugar (glucose) levels rises and the pancreas pumps out more insulin than ever.

So… blood sugar can be very low or very high at the same time that the insulin level is high.

There is NO effective treatment to reduce excess insulin. There is no drug to make the pancreas return to a proper amount of production. However, IF the BCG bacteria are the cause of this malfunction in the pancreas, I suspect that the appropriate antibiotic could reduce the amount of bacteria and allow the pancreas to return to normal. A normal insulin level should allow muscle cells also to return to normal and regain strength and function.

The fasting blood insulin test is the only test I know of for establishing one's insulin level. However, I believe jimmylegs once told me there is a urine test for insulin – I know nothing about this.
My hypothesis: excess insulin (hyperinsulinemia) plays a major role in MS, as developed in my initial post: http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-discussion-f1/topic1878.html "Insulin – Could This Be the Key?"
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby NHE » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:30 am

dc10 wrote:- even though there is a lot of legumes for B1 . before the list it says:
"Asparagus is an excellent source of vitamin B1. Very good sources of vitamin B1 include crimini mushrooms, spinach, flaxseeds, tuna, green peas, and Brussels sprouts."
and i eat these veg regularly (besides peas/tuna), and 1tbsp flaxseed oil daily


Often during the pressing process vitamins are lost from oils. I suggest reading "Fats That Heal, Fats That Kill" by Udo Erasmus as a good reference on fats and oils. I take a TB of ground flaxseed every day. Here's a site which discusses the nutrients of whole flaxseed.

Flaxseed vs. Flaxseed Oil
Flaxseed Nutrient Information

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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:22 am

excellent article highlighting some of the differences between h-g diets and some modern adaptations. potential pitfalls to be aware of.

The Inuit Paradox
How can people who gorge on fat and rarely see a vegetable be healthier than we are?
http://discovermagazine.com/2004/oct/in ... Nhrym9QWpU

additional highly worthwhile reading

Plant-animal subsistence ratios and macronutrient energy estimations in worldwide hunter-gatherer diets. (cordain et al 2000)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10702160

Reply to L Cordain et al (milton 2000)
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/72/6/1590.full

Hunter-gatherer diets-a different perspective. (milton 2000)
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/71/3/665.full
"Data on modern-day hunter-gatherers as well as hunter-gatherer-agriculturalists who consumed traditional diets indicate that such societies are largely free of diseases of civilization regardless of whether a high percentage of dietary energy is supplied by wild animal foods (eg, in Canadian Eskimos), wild plant foods (eg, in the !Kung), or domesticated plant foods taken primarily from a single cultivar (eg, in the Yanomamo) (7–11)."

Are health and ill-health lessons from hunter-gatherers currently relevant? (walker 2001)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11157335
"First, it must be stressed that relative freedom from degenerative disorders or diseases was, and still is, characteristic of all societies of hunter-gatherers. This prevailed whether the diets had a high fat content, supplying 28–58% of energy, as reported in the societies studied by Cordain et al (1), or a far lower fat content, as indicated in the societies of hunter-gatherer agriculturalists described by Milton (2) in her Editorial on the subject. Further, this relative freedom from degenerative diseases is equally characteristic of all of the numerous rural pastoral societies in Africa, which, until very recently, have been accustomed almost wholly to diets with a relatively low contribution to energy by fat of 15–20% (3). In such contexts, obesity and diabetes had a low prevalence (4); indeed, this is still the case in some rural areas. Coronary heart disease (CHD) is still virtually absent and is rarely seen in patients admitted to rural hospitals (5). Simultaneously, in rural contexts, the cancers of prosperity are uncommon, although, understandably, they are increasing in urban dwellers (6). Thus, with limited exceptions, the nutritional pattern of the diet of rural Africans could still serve as a model for possible implementation in Western populations. In support of the uncommonness of deaths from degenerative diseases, in South Africa, as recently as 1970, of Africans who reached the age of 50 y, even more reached an age ≥70 y than was the case with the white population (7). Elderly Africans died almost entirely from infections. Two features insufficiently stressed were their very high levels of everyday physical activity and low levels of smoking, especially among women."
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:30 am

thanks for explaining lynda,
the BCG vaccine i had at 15 (maybe i was 14) does make me wonder,
i was always a stocky/chunky kid/teenager then around the age of 14 i lost all the weight and have been stick thin every since,
my MS symptoms also started at 14-15, diagnosed at 17
maybe the BCG started my problems


NHE,
I consume 1 tbsp of flaxseed oil daily with my breakfast smoothie, this one: http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pages/ ... 353&cid=20

but they also sell the flaxseeds: http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pages/ ... 071&cid=20

so do you think it would be better to eat flaxseeds with breakfast instead of drinking the oil with my smoothie?
the link praises flaxseeds over flaxseed oil, but then they are promoting a product!
would 1tbsp flaxseed oil = 1tbsp flaxseeds


JL,
Besides the WH site, where else is a good place to see the inflammation rating and nutrient density guides?

thanks for the links, yet again more conflicting information,
i'm at a stage now where i'm just lost,
one diet says cut sat fats, one says increase them, one says red meat/sat fats worsens MS, one says if grass-fed they're fine, then one says not all red meat is bad,

MS diets vary, yet they all claim the benefits of following a specific way.

well all i can do is try one diet out at a time, and the one that doesn't worsen my symptoms. and if it helps my symptoms, i will stick with that one.

when would be a good time to get back on my vitamins/supplements?
as i haven't been taking any for 5 days now - had bloods drawn for FBC/liver tests on Friday gone.
i take:
After breakfast- 50mg Zinc picolinate, After lunch- Omega 3 Fish oil 1000mg, COQ10 100mg, Vit B50, Vit D3 5000IU, Calcium 300mg, - inbetween lunch/dinner 2mg Copper- After Dinner: Omega 3 fish oil 1000mg, Magnesium Glycinate 300mg, Selenium 200mcg, Vit C 1000mg, Vit E 400IU, Copper 2mg, Dried Sea Kelp 187mg (Wahls diet recommends so may stop this)


Thanks everyone for sharing your knowledge and links,
Merry Christmas :)
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:36 am

hi dc, for inflammation rating and nutritional profiles i use www.nutritiondata.com. REALLY awesome. i generally stick with whfoods for nutrient density specifically. but as you know i look for the details re milligrams of nutrients and bioavailability rather than just taking their word for something being an 'excellent' source of a nutrient.

red meat is not bad. traditionally. industrial age red meat deserves suspicion yes, but you can't paint all red meat with the same brush. for example, my wild venison and bison are healthy and full of nutrition. meanwhile, my little cow has gone to the butcher and i can't get steaks bc the mennonite butchers have advised the farmers that being more grass fed than grain fed, any steaks will be too lean for good customer reception. so the cuts will be ground, stew, and roast. so be it!

fat is not bad. you just have to watch. again, commercially raised livestock could have an undesirable fat profile due to feed practices aimed at getting the most bang for a buck. the hydrogenation of fat to make a liquid solid at room temp, also not good. as you know, we need fat to absorb fat soluble vitamins. making blanket statements about high fat or no/low fat is not indepth enough. people want easy answers. unfortunately, life is complex.

as for supplements. i believe i mentioned a while back that you need to take some magnesium at the same time as d3 AND some at a diff time of day.
and as for re-introducing them, consider adding them one at a time as much as possible, and maybe go three days before adding the next.
proposed order (a little haphazard but going for least potentially problematic ones first):

vit C for 3 days.
then fish oils and vit C for the next three days.
then add the selenium for three days.
then add in the b50 x3d.
add a dose of magnesium (1 of 2) x3d.
then add your daily copper doses x3d.
then zinc x3d.
then d3 plus another dose of magnesium (2 of 2) x3d.

you may not need the calcium. it could be messing things up.
i don't use kelp or coQ10 so no comment there.
if not supplementing, ensure your dietary vit E is good. sunflower seeds and almonds :)

ps fyi personally i mix up whether i'm having flax oil or ground flax seeds. or whole flax seeds for that matter.
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:59 pm

thanks jl for this routine,

thanks for those links,

i do take this vit E daily but i remember you didnt approve of it:
http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pages/ ... 623&cid=69
so i could drop this and just eat a few daily sunflower seeds/almonds

re flaxseeds, i could transfer from oil to seeds, it does work out cheaper and that site seems to believ its a healthier option,
how many flaxseeds and how much flaxseed oil do you take on the das you take it?
a teaspoon, tablespoon., or in grams?

thank you
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:48 pm

no worries. as for vit E. yes imho it would be far better to eat nuts and seeds for vit E, than to take the wrong type of supplement. sunflower seeds and almonds are a good mix. if you ate 1/2c daily, 50/50 blend, overall it would be anti-inflammatory. (the sunflower seeds are pro-inflammatory but the almonds are a little more strongly anti so on the whole the balance is beneficial)

with flax seed, i will either put say a tablespoon of ground or whole seed on cereal, or sometimes just around a tablespoon of oil. if i use it in salad, it's more often a sprinkling of whole seed and a splash of oil. i don't measure it really i'm just ballparking.
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:00 pm

okay, but now im on the Swank diet, it stresses no more than 15grams of sat fats and 50g unsaturated fats a day,
so according to this site http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/nut ... cts/3085/2

1/4 cup of almonds contains:
136kcal
1g sat fats
11.5g total fats, which is 18% of RDA

Including the sunflower seeds:
67kcal
0.5g sat fats
6g total fats, 9% RDA


Hope i calculated this correct, as the measurement was 1 cup so divided everything by four

Plus the 1tbsp ever morning i have of flaxseed oil =
119kcal
1g sat fats
14g total fats, 21% total RDA


So total =

322kcals
2.5g sat fats
31.5g total fats

Is it wise to consume this much fat in such a small snack, considering the Swank diet is low-fat ( max 50g fat daily)
i appreciate your views on fats JL, but as i just want to test this diet, i want to follow it strictly , for at least a few months

- why could the calcium supplement be messing things up?
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