Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possible?

A board to discuss various diet-centered approaches to treating or controlling Multiple Sclerosis, e.g., the Swank Diet

Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby lyndacarol » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:26 pm

dc10 wrote:...
and then theres my weight loss on the diet (im 5'11" weighed 133 lbs before starting wahls diet, now 114lbs), despite the fact i eat soo much food, but it is low carb/calories
maybe my body has gone into survival mode from less calories consumed/weight loss and as a result have weakened legs/bladder,
Maybe the small amount of carbs i eat is resulting in me not functioning properly which = weaker levs /bladder?
sound realistic? it has been 8 months now on the wahls diet

- do you think by consuming too few calories (for me personally), could then make an MS patients symptoms worse?
is it logical?
- but i am rarely hungry till meal times (every 3-4 hours) due to the huge quantities of vegetables i eat.
...

re the lesion, i got a copy of the letter the general surgeon sent to my GP when i was referred to him i in October to assess the lesion:


The patient has a very prominent coccyx due to the fact he's extremely thin. He spends a lot of time sitting down and there is a small red patch in the natal cleft which looks chronic rather than acute.
...
hmm the dietitian i saw last week said the mark is there due to there being very little bodyfat,
and that if i increase my weight and subsequent bodyfat, that the mark/lesion would heal
not sure how accurate this assumption is?...


In regard to your weight loss on the Wahls diet and current low weight (which your general surgeon described as "extremely thin"), I encourage you to watch the following video from The Dr. Oz Show, in which Dr. Joel Fuhrman (about 1:00) remarks that diets heavy in green, leafy vegetables have too few calories and result in people being too thin: http://www.doctoroz.com/episode/5-diet- ... ideo=16347

Fuhrman recommends eating forms of squash for numerous reasons, one of which is that squash does not cause a spike in insulin. Sweet potato and squash might be good for you every day. Although the main focus of his recent book is on diabetes, you might find benefit from his suggestions in his book, The End of Diabetes.
My hypothesis: excess insulin (hyperinsulinemia) plays a major role in MS, as developed in my initial post: http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-discussion-f1/topic1878.html "Insulin – Could This Be the Key?"
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:03 am

dc10 wrote:Hi JL,

I just got my results back for my ferritin level, if you remember i also got another FBC and liver function test at the same time
- i got the bloods drawn on 21/12/12 , but i didnt start including grains in my diet till 23/12/12
but i had been including starchy veg in my wahls diet (sweet potato & butternut squash) on 17/12/12 due to the weight loss,
well the results were:

- A * before the test name indicates my result was out of the range


Serum Ferritin
= 137 ng/ml ----- RANGE = 30 - 400

On 11/12 - 14/12 took Ferrous Fumarate 210mg (69mg elemental iron) x2tablets daily for 4 days, so this could of raised my iron levels, but i was off the iron for 8 days leading up to my bloods being drawn


Full Blood Count:

* Haemoglobin estimation = 12.9 g/dl ----- RANGE = 13 - 18
* Total white cell count = 3.6 10*9/L ----- RANGE = 4 - 11
Platelet count = 176 10*9/L ----- RANGE = 140 - 400
* Mean corpuscular volume (MCV) = 102.0 fL ----- RANGE = 76 - 98
Mean corpusc. Hb. conc (MCHC) = 33.2 g/gL ----- RANGE = 32 - 36
* Mean corpusc. haemoglobin (MCH) = 33.9 pg ----- RANGE = 27-32
* Red blood cell (RBC) count = 3.82 10*12/l ----- RANGE = 4.5 - 6.5
* Haematogrit = 0.390 per cent ----- RANGE = 0.4 - 0.54
RBC - red blood cell size = 12.0 fL ----- RANGE = 9 - 15
Mean platelet volume = 8.5 fL NO RANGE GIVEN so assume was in range as no *


Differential white cell count


Monocytecount = 0.3 10*9/L ----- RANGE = 0 - 1.2
* Lymphocyte count = 1.3 10*9/L ----- RANGE = 1.4 - 4
Basophil count = 0.0 10*9/L ----- RANGE = 0 - 0.2
Eosinophil count = 0.0 10*9/L ----- RANGE = 0 - 0.4
Neutrophil count = 2.0 10*9/L ----- RANGE = 2 - 7.5


Liver function test

Serum alkaline phosphatase = 47 u/L ----- RANGE = 30 - 130
Serum total bilirubin level= 5 umol/L ----- RANGE = 0 - 21
* Serum albumin = 51 g/L ----- RANGE = 35 - 50
Plasma ALT level = 22 u/L ----- RANGE = 0 - 41


So now i know my iron levels are okay, and my B12 and folate levels are high, it does worry me why i have low red/white cell counts, any other reasons?
i know i was borderline low for my serum copper but 8 days before having these bloods drawn, i started 4x 2mg copper supplements, so 8,g daily elemental copper leading up to the bloods being drawn.... surely if copper was the cuse of the lo red/white cell count, my red/white cells shouldnt have been so low still?

Im concerned my white & red cell counts are low, again,
but i didnt change to he Swank diet till 23/12/12 - where i removed red meat, reduced sat fats to < 15grams a day, removed organ meat, coconut oil, and included grains with 2 of my 3 daily meals,eating starchy veg.

what are your and others thoughts on these blood results and my low blood cell count?
i was told if my ferritin, b12 and folate levels are in range, my low red cell count could be ue to internal bleeding :s

thank you for all opinions


any thoughts on these blood results?
should i be concerned?
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:55 am

i'm not a cbc interpretation expert.. all i know is you want your hemoglobin to be at least 13 (per klenner at least, not to mention your lab's range). and i would expect mcv to be high in b12 deficiency not repletion

your iron looks fine i would not take any more. could drive down zinc levels

what're your b12 and folate results again?

you can read in detail about all these tests here http://labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/cbc/
extremely valuable resource...
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:12 am

hi jl,

my b12 and folate were both High:
Vitamin B12 - 765 pg/mL - range = 191 - 663 - HIGH
Serum Folate - > 20.00 ng/mL - range = 4.6 - 18.7 - i assume they forgot to write HIGH on my results


So as we now know my iron levels are in range, do you think my borderline LOW copper is the reason for my LOW red, white and haemoglobin levels = anemia ?
is there other possible reasons for these low out-of-range levels, when my b12,m folate, and iron are all fine/normal?
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby Liberation » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:55 am

lyndacarol wrote: In regard to your weight loss on the Wahls diet and current low weight (which your general surgeon described as "extremely thin"), I encourage you to watch the following video from The Dr. Oz Show, in which Dr. Joel Fuhrman (about 1:00) remarks that diets heavy in green, leafy vegetables have too few calories and result in people being too thin: http://www.doctoroz.com/episode/5-diet- ... ideo=16347

Fuhrman recommends eating forms of squash for numerous reasons, one of which is that squash does not cause a spike in insulin. Sweet potato and squash might be good for you every day. Although the main focus of his recent book is on diabetes, you might find benefit from his suggestions in his book, The End of Diabetes.


Lynda, I experienced exactly the same weight loss when I was on a diet heavy in greens. That time Dr Wahls told me that I should eat more coconut oil.
It seems to me that dr Wahls is the only diet guru who tries to replicate her success with a group of MS patients, so it might be worth following exactly what she says. Does anyone know if she has a collection of recepies based on her diet for MS patients? It would be very useful to have several daily recepies from her that we could combine. :)
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby chico » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:22 pm

mcdougal also has a low fat diet study running that will report sometime this year
http://www.ohsu.edu/xd/about/news_event ... tandms.cfm

george jelinkek (http://www.overcomingmultiplesclerosis.org/)
has a cohort study running, results sometime in 2013 as well i belive

the first study was quite impressive (some methodical weakness thou)

http://www.overcomingmultiplesclerosis. ... p+results/

i still find it hard to belive that everyone seems to have forgotten about the old swank in favour of meat/high sat fat diets.

http://www.swankmsdiet.org/About%20Dr%20Swank

and the french Dr. Kousmine
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby lyndacarol » Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:56 pm

dc10 – I think long and hard about your situation and weight-loss on the Wahls diet. In view of my reading and JL's posting of the following Discover magazine article last year, I wonder if you are not getting enough fat. And you are trying the low-fat Swank diet now, right?

http://discovermagazine.com/2004/oct/in ... Nhrym9QWpU

Of the three macronutrients (fats, protein, and carbohydrates), fats and protein are NECESSARY for good health; carbohydrates are NOT necessary for good health. This is what Vilhjalmur Stefansson discovered after World War I when he lived with the Inuit for a decade, eating virtually NO fruits, NO vegetables (that is, NO carbohydrates). And staying very healthy!

It is a misconception that the brain and CNS require dietary glucose to function… animal foods [protein] contain all of the essential amino acids…. They also contain 12 of the 13 essential vitamins in large quantities. (Good Calories Bad Calories by Taubes, page 320 – 322)

Try adding more good fats to your diet, dc – fry an egg in coconut oil for breakfast each morning; eat an avocado each day; eat lots of oily fish, etc.; avoid ANY trans fats; give up all the carbs – even complex carbs. Give it a try – for a short while, even three or four weeks, see if it makes a difference in how you feel.

I myself am boosting my diet with fats and limiting carbohydrates – I am trying to switch my body from burning glucose as its energy source to burning fats for energy. Without glucose my body should produce much less insulin, which is always high. Won't you join me? I think we have been misled by the food industry and government recommendations for "no fat, low fat."

Several years ago (2007) a very wise member of ThisIsMS (gwa – unfortunately, not heard from in a LONG time) stated:
It is a shame that fat was made a culprit in our diet because fat is necessary and too many people now avoid all fats, which is harmful to their bodies.
My hypothesis: excess insulin (hyperinsulinemia) plays a major role in MS, as developed in my initial post: http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-discussion-f1/topic1878.html "Insulin – Could This Be the Key?"
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby CaveMan » Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:55 pm

I agree with Lyndacarol mostly,
Natural fat's have been unjustly maligned,
The greatest offender that has been foisted on the population is the "polyunsaturated Omega 6 healthy oils" falacy, we need a small amount of Omega 6, but not out of a bottle, but rather from natural sources like nuts and seeds.
What is most crucial in this aspect is the Omega 6:Omega 3 ratio, current intake is between 10-20:1 and the ratio should be around 2:1 or less, the reason is that both these essential oils compete for the same enzymatic machinery in the body, so if you are dousing your Omega 3 (fish oil) in a sea of Omega 6 vegetable oil, the Omega 3 will not get a look in and your body will be deficient.
Saturated and monounsaturated fats are relatively benign to the body and should form the bulk of fat intake, roughly in equal proportions.

Regarding the low carb direction, there is value in this, but do not force it, too many people go there too quickly only to find their bodies have not made the required adjustments metabolically, and doing a good thing too fast can result in a negative outcome, slow and steady is the way.

Dietwise you want to fill it with high nutrient density, high variety, meats, fruits and vegetables, avoid Soy and Grains as the overall negative impacts far outweigh any positive attributes they have.
Use other legumes sparingly, say as part of a big pot of stew or a small side serve on the plate, no more than 10% of your overall diet.
Keep nut's and seeds as nutritious snacks, but don't go overboard, though you may need to have a bit more in the transitional period as your body adjusts to a lower sugar intake.
Yoghurt and hard cheeses are the best dairy if you need to keep a bit of dairy in, though as there is a strong corrolation between MS and dairy consumption it may be wiser to avoid it or at least minimise intake.
Over time your tastes will change and you will get a desire for more fat as your sugar cravings subside, but let your body guide you as much as possible.
The biggest benefit will come from just eliminating all processed foods as these all contain undesirable additives and ingredients, even the "healthiest" bread is a processed food and will contain negative attributes, outside of being almost pure starch and driving Insulin spikes.
Don't fear starchy tubers like sweet potato, they will supply good carbs while you are in transition.

I did look at a lot of the MS and Cancer diets etc. and although they are generally much healthier than the SAD, many have their foundations in spiritual beliefs and not in nutrition, our bodies do best when we have an adequate supply of animal sourced meats and fats, plant sources just don't cut it, as an example we hear a lot about Omega 3 from plants like flax seed oil, what they don't tell you is our bodies do a very poor conversion of this oil, Alpha Linoleic Acid to EPA and esspecially DHA where conversion rate is less than 1% and DHA is the real big one for the brain and other tissues, so there really is no suitable plant source for these. Best sources are fatty fish and real pasture raised meat and eggs. If nothing else just getting a good dose of this essential oil would benefit the entire population immensly.
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby naturalsurvivor » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:57 am

I'm jumping into the conversation based on a link that I found with someone having trouble on the Wahls diet. She had an infection in her coccyx.

In response to this, having suffered from an underlying infection that kept me from remission from my UC, another auto-immunce disorder, I have learned that bacteria feed on sugars, even natural sugars. You may want to limit or stop your fruit intake while treating the infection and then slowly reintroduce the fruit after you feel the bacteria is gone. As for the greens, I would recommend juicing them instead of eating them in their raw form as the juicing process (done with a juicer that has a "masticating" proccess - i.e.. Omega juicer) will extract the micronutrients (basis of the Wahls diet success) and they will be better absorbed by the body. Hope this helps.
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