Has ANYONE reversed their MS BESIDES Dr Wahls?

A board to discuss various diet-centered approaches to treating or controlling Multiple Sclerosis, e.g., the Swank Diet

Re: Has ANYONE reversed their MS BESIDES Dr Wahls?

Postby ElliotB » Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:13 pm

Vesta, what does your diet consist of?
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Re: Has ANYONE reversed their MS BESIDES Dr Wahls?

Postby vesta » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:03 am

ElliotB wrote:Vesta, what does your diet consist of?


Hello ElliotB :

One comment before I answer your question. I have noticed your success with diet (gluten free among other things) and supplements. Bravo. But you appear adamantly opposed to the CCSVI issue. However, the one doesn’t preclude the other. I believe MS is essentially a CNS fluid circulation problem, venous blood and cerebro-spinal fluid, but cases vary widely. Consider those who have recovered entirely through gluten free etc diet. (I include myself until I went off the diet.) Macdougall etc. For me Dr Owiesy (and Scott1) have provided the missing link. Dr Arata as well. It’s the Autonomic Nervous System which leads off from the spine into the brain. Let’s say a « toxic » diet (glutens for example) triggers spasms in the muscle layer of the Internal Jugular Veins, thus blocking the blood flow. (Inflammatory foods trigger calcium release from the cells which cramp the muscles, and veins ?) When this happens blood flow restriction might send back jets of blood into the brain – CCSVI. But that MSer may not need angioplasty, he just has to eat correctly and avoid toxins (Antibiotics for example).

Others may have seriously obstructed veins and require angioplasty. Some may have a bony structure obstruction which requires body manipulation. Even surgery. So how can a simple minded one size fits all study account for these variables ? It can’t.

Anyway, as long as you continue your diet/supplements you should be fine and need not give angioplasty another thought.

A good general MS diet can be found here (which I refer to.)

Matt Embry’s MSHope http://www.mshope.com provides an excellent « Recipe » for MS healing – Diet, Supplements, CCSVI, Exercise
 
My first de-tox diet was very radical and I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone. I need to refer to it occasionally just to remind myself what I’m doing wrong.

Servings per week:

Starchy vegetables 1 raw, 1 cooked
Lo starchy vegetables 8 raw, 3 cooked
Acid fruits 1 raw. Sub-acid fruis 1 raw, Sweet fruits 1 raw
Eggs 6 raw. 2 cooked
NO Dairy, Red meats, Organ meats.
YES Poultry 1 cooked (must eat with raw veggies)
Seafood 4 Raw (Sushi entered my life here)
Nuts 3 Raw
Grains 4 cooked (soak 8-12 hours first)
Seeds 2 Raw
Misc. 3 Cooked
Veggie Juice 12 Raw


Meals per day - 11
Max food per meal - 1 cup
Water per day 40-45 ozs
Salt per day - 0
Oil per day - 1/2 tsp
Avoid avocado
Eat Papaya

He drew up a complicated chart about combining food correctly. 
For instance melons combine only with acid or sub acid fruits and nothing else. 

Forbidden for me personally, defined as"allergies"by Muscle Testing. (Food intolérances might be a better general term.)

Lactose (IF I consumed dairy the following non-lactose dairies were OK - Yoghurt, brie, muenster, camembert, ghie, lactose free milk products)
No glutens e.g. wheat, rye, barley, oats
No "legumes" - peas, beans, peanuts, soy, alfalfa, carob, licorice
No honey, coffee, tea, sugar, artificial flavors, colors, preservatives
No margarine. Avoid safflower and corn oils, do use sesame, coconut and ghie
No olives, pineapple, nutmeg, mace, chamomile, sarsparilla


Previously published on my site http://www.mscureenigmas.net see under First Diet 1984

Thanks for asking. Have you written up a general protocol for what you do? I'd like to see it. Thanks

Best regards, Vesta
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Re: Has ANYONE reversed their MS BESIDES Dr Wahls?

Postby ElliotB » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:01 pm

"But you appear adamantly opposed to the CCSVI issue"

No, I am just not convinced about it. Like every protocol used successfully to treat MS, it works for some but not all. I am not a doctor or a scientist but feel confident that ANY protocol that works for some but not all needs to be carefully scrutinized. When you consider that we are dealing with an illness that goes into remission for most, any treatment has the potential for the claim of success which is perhaps why there are about 40 'cures' currently available, and all seem to work for some but not all, and there are so many different approaches to battling MS.


"I believe MS is essentially a CNS fluid circulation problem"

I tend to agree somewhat with this theory (that it may be part of the puzzle of MS, but not necessarily the exclusive cause) and I do a many different things to naturally promote fluid circulation within my body.


Thanks for the info on your diet...
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Re: Has ANYONE reversed their MS BESIDES Dr Wahls?

Postby koneall » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:24 am

I was diagnosed recently. I follow McDougall's Starch Diet. I first tried Wahl's diet but couldn't stay with it. I think these vegan diets leave one deficient in Vitamin B12. Wahl recommends organ meats which will be high in B12. McDougall says to take B12 tablets. McDougall says animal proteins cause autoimmune antibodies to form that can cross the BBB and attack the myelin sheath layers. After a month on the diet I haven't had any new attacks and have lost 6 or 8 pounds. I don't use a scale but can guesstimate by my belt.

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Re: Has ANYONE reversed their MS BESIDES Dr Wahls?

Postby ElliotB » Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:03 pm

"McDougall says animal proteins cause autoimmune antibodies to form that can cross the BBB and attack the myelin sheath layers"

What evidence does he provide to support this theory?

If this were true, wouldn't people with MS following a high animal protein diet have continuous attacks (which ultimately is not the case)?


I was curious about this diet and found this summary:

http://files.faso.us/13231/3962.pdf
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Re: Has ANYONE reversed their MS BESIDES Dr Wahls?

Postby koneall » Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:52 pm

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Re: Has ANYONE reversed their MS BESIDES Dr Wahls?

Postby ElliotB » Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:27 pm

That study does not support McDougall's claim or answer my question, sorry.
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Re: Has ANYONE reversed their MS BESIDES Dr Wahls?

Postby koneall » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:53 am

ElliotB wrote:That study does not support McDougall's claim or answer my question, sorry.


I think it does;

"...An inverse relationship was observed between traditional, vegetarian and lacto vegetarian dietary patterns and MS risk. Besides, a positive relation between high animal fat dietary pattern and risk of MS was found."

kaypeeoh
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Re: Has ANYONE reversed their MS BESIDES Dr Wahls?

Postby ElliotB » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:47 am

The study is flawed in numerous ways. Let me give you one example:

The study is called "Dietary pattern and risk of multiple sclerosis" and is about about reducing the risk of contracting MS yet the study studies 87 females with existing relapsing/remitting MS. Not sure why they only studied females from one very small geographic area but in any case, if the people in the study already had MS, how can they conclude anything about reducing the risk of contracting MS (which was the apparent goal of the study)? And just to be clear, this thread is about reversing the symptoms of MS through diet, specifically the Wahls protocol, not reducing the incidence of MS in people who do not already have MS. It makes for an interesting discussion anyway.

Additionally, the study refers to 'red meat'. Not all meats are created equal. Grass fed meats, as recommended by Dr. Wahls, may not look all that different from regular supermarket meats but nutritionally they are totally different. Few will disagree that wild caught fish are healthy to eat for many reasons, one of those reasons (probably the main one) being their high Omega 3 content. Farm raised fish are very nutritionally different and quite inferior nutritionally to their wild caught fish counterparts. Grass fed meats are similarly nutritious to wild caught fish for the same reasons (they are loaded with nutrition include high omega 3s).

Dr. Wahls has many, many testimonials of success for those who follow her protocol, and although not heavily emphasized in your book, she does recommend the consumption grass fed meats as an integral part of her diet.
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Re: Has ANYONE reversed their MS BESIDES Dr Wahls?

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:31 am

not to say i've examined it in depth, but her diet seems intuitive for reversing the nutritional deficits associated with vegetarianism. i wouldn't expect that approach to represent a reversal of status quo, specifically in the direction of optimal, for everyone out there - not by a long shot. have i *reversed* my 'ms'? not via dr wahls' approach specifically, but i am an ex vegetarian and ex vegan and when this dx came down 11+ yrs ago, i did work hard to understand and correct inappropriate lifestyle patterns. on paper my routine and dr wahls' would look pretty similar i am sure (on the food side of things anyway, not the tens deal). kind of like public health recommendations with a boost (since not maintaining status quo, but working to redress long term suboptimal health).
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: Has ANYONE reversed their MS BESIDES Dr Wahls?

Postby koneall » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:12 pm

Mcdougall mentions about 4 billion Asians live on a high-starch rice diet and are uniformly thin with no incidence of MS. Wahl uses a vegetarian diet which is low in starch. Maybe the starch is what protects me from MS.
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Re: Has ANYONE reversed their MS BESIDES Dr Wahls?

Postby ElliotB » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:46 pm

Mcdougall mentions about 4 billion Asians live on a high-starch rice diet and are uniformly thin with no incidence of MS.


This is not true. According to the MS society and other knowledgeable sources, MS is almost unheard of in some populations, including the Inuit, Yakutes, Hutterites, Hungarian Romani, Norwegian Lapps, Australian Aborigines and New Zealanders. The Eskimos also have zero incidence of MS.

http://www.nationalmssociety.org/What-is-MS/Who-Gets-MS

https://multiplesclerosis.net/what-is-ms/statistics/

There is definitely MS within the Asian population and fortunately there is a low incidence of it in this population group. And perhaps they are uniformly thin because rice has so little nutrition, especially white rice (brown rice is a bit better nutritionally but still has limited health benefits).


Wahl uses a vegetarian diet


This is also incorrect, the Wahls' diet is a meat based Palio type diet (grass fed meats/wild caught fatty fish) and supplemented with a lot of vegetables.

The Wahls Protocol Diet could be summed up as:

3 cups of green leafy vegetables (daily)
3 cups of sulphur rich vegetables (daily)
3 cups of bright colour (peppers, berries, fruit) (daily)
Grass fed meat (several times per week)
Wild seafood (several times per week)
Seaweed (at least once a week)

http://www.ownmultiplesclerosis.com/its ... -protocol/
Last edited by ElliotB on Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Has ANYONE reversed their MS BESIDES Dr Wahls?

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:10 am

yes as stated above, wahls' approach seems to be aimed in part at reversing the nutritional consequences of her earlier vegetarian routine - including an emphasis on nutrient dense veg however. (and per published research, with at least one important essential micronutrient gap i've noted to date). you can eat french fries all week and still call yourself a vegetarian. vegetarianism is NOT automatically healthy. i'm a poster child for dietary extremism gone wrong.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: Has ANYONE reversed their MS BESIDES Dr Wahls?

Postby koneall » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:49 am

McDougall's approach could be called a 'high starch' diet. One study he mentions was college students eating a normal diet but also eating 12 slices of bread during the day. All the students lost significant weight because of the 12 slices per day. I would have thought the carbs would have led to weight gain but McDougal says it doesn't happen. The carbs get used up by the body and not stored as fat. I'm one month into his diet, have lost a bit of weight but more importantly I haven't had any new attacks of vertigo. The vertigo is what ultimately led me to a diagnosis of MS.
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Re: Has ANYONE reversed their MS BESIDES Dr Wahls?

Postby ElliotB » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:28 am

Until someone does proper clinical trials on the diet they propose/recommend and the relationship/interaction to those with MS, anyone proposing a diet can claim whatever they want to. Without proper evaluation/trials to substantiate the claims presented, individuals, ESPECIALLY anyone with MS, considering a diet should be extremely careful as to what diet they choose to follow, and should do extensive research on the content of foods used in the diet and the potential consequences, both positive and negative. Everyone needs a diet that provides the necessary nutrition for good health and those with MS need a diet that provides exceptional nutrition. And it appears that those with the initials "DR" next to their name get some kind of pass when it comes to substantiating their claims. Proper evaluation of their proposals should be made and conclusions made based on proven research.

On McDougall's site, he makes this statement: "The healthiest diet is based on low-fat vegetable foods." Dr. Whals (and many, many others) would not agree. And frankly, either would I. I have been following a very high good fat diet (grass fed meats, wild caught seafood/fish, gluten free, minimal veggies) even more restrictive than Dr. Whals' diet for over three years and I am doing fantastic.

As I have stated many times, ALL diets related to MS seem to work for some but not all. Ever wonder why?

So how can both Dr. Wahls and Dr. McDougall be correct about the health effects/benefits from their diets when their diets are diametrically opposed to each other? (At least Dr. Wahls currently has a clinical study under way.)

Ever wonder why in over 50 years no one has ever conducted a clinical trial on the Swank diet? Ever wonder why no one presenting a diet for MS patients has ever conducted a clinical trial on their diet (EXCEPT for Dr. Wahls)?

There is ample (scientific) credible evidence that gluten should be eliminated from the human diet, So IMHO any diet that includes gluten should be avoided, especially for those of us with MS.
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