what's with wheat

A board to discuss various diet-centered approaches to treating or controlling Multiple Sclerosis, e.g., the Swank Diet

what's with wheat

Postby tzootsi » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:04 pm

I just watched this on Netflix the other night - pretty interesting film. Dr Terry Wahls has a big part in it. If you can believe everything in this film, you'll never eat gluten again!
https://whatswithwheat.com/
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Re: what's with wheat

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:02 pm

i can't believe everything in this film already, and i've only seen the trailer so far. could wheat ag be improved? undoubtedly. would people collectively benefit from switching out some processed/baked goods in the standard western diet for vegetables and fruits? this has been established. is wheat the root of all evil? that, i really do not believe.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: what's with wheat

Postby ElliotB » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:51 pm

I have not viewed the the video, but based on my research, I happen to agree that wheat may be "the root of all evil", or at least the gluten contained within it.



For anyone seriously interested in this topic, I strongly recommend this book:


"Grain Brain": The Surprising Truth about Wheat, Carbs, and Sugar--Your Brain's Silent Killers
by Dr. D David Perlmutter



The bottom line appears to be that while most people can tolerate wheat/gluten, most, especially those of us with MS, should avoid wheat/gluten.


There are many food items that may contain gluten, often in hidden or unexpected ways. This link provides a pretty comprehensive list of products with gluten in them:


https://celiac.org/live-gluten-free/glu ... of-gluten/
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Re: what's with wheat

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:23 am

wheat ag improvements can help address gluten sensitivity issues in humans. i've previously posted links to research about the consequences of soil zn deficiency on glutenin/gliadin ratios in wheat and the implications for human gluten sensitivity.

i used to be quite sensitive to gluten. over a decade ago, i was avoiding it assiduously. i eventually learned that i was zinc deficient. since making sure my levels are not deficient and furthermore optimal vs low normal, not to mention working carefully on my status for other essential nutrients, wheat products present no problems. i don't overdo dietary wheat - far from it. but neither do i avoid it entirely.

i also recall posting research about serum zinc levels in celiac patients at diagnosis, and research about improvements to serum zinc status in celiac patients when implementing gluten free diets. so, we recognize gluten has an impact on essential nutrient status. hence the recent calls for updates to DRIs for zinc, to account for zinc interactions with phytates and gluten in particular, and consequences for absorption.

i also recall learning, although i don't recall whether the source was a research publication, that consumption of animal protein with wheat products helps mitigate the consequences of gluten intake. i'll have to have a look, see if i can find that source again. as usual, i think it's far better to focus on optimizing essential nutrient status than cutting out entire categories of food.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: what's with wheat

Postby ElliotB » Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:42 am

"far better to focus on optimizing essential nutrient status than cutting out entire categories of food"

To me the two are equally important and in the end accomplish the same goal - I do both.
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Re: what's with wheat

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:01 pm

to each their own. personally i built up my system so that it can handle sporadic gluten intake.

Whole wheat
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... ce&dbid=66
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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jimmylegs
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Re: what's with wheat

Postby NHE » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:29 am

Regarding wheat, there's also "Wheat Belly, Total Health" by Dr. William Davis.

http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/

He had a lecture on PBS a while back. I'm not sure if this is still available. His books are on Amazon or you can likely get them from your local library.

https://www.amazon.com/Wheat-Belly-Tota ... 623367700/
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Re: what's with wheat

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:42 am

from among top ten results of a search on
reviews dr william davis

Wheat Belly arguments are based on shaky science, critics say
Scientists dispute claims in best-selling book, fifth estate finds
http://www.cbc.ca/news/wheat-belly-argu ... -1.2974214

https://www.quora.com/Where-is-the-scie ... Belly-book

http://nogluten-noproblem.com/2012/03/w ... usted.html

"...I’m more than disappointed with Davis and Wheat Belly; I’m downright angry. This book can and should be better. We, the gluten-free community, deserve as much. ... Sections of the book amount to propaganda, fallacies, and unsubstantiated claims. For me, Wheat Belly is a bust."
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: what's with wheat

Postby ElliotB » Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:44 pm

Isn't it possible that Davis, Perlmutter, Potter, Jensen. Easton, Osborne and the many others who have made similar claims about the negative impact of gluten are right and the critics are wrong?
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Re: what's with wheat

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:12 pm

avoidance is too simplistic, throws out the baby with the bathwater, and ignores the solutions that should be sought where gluten is concerned. as stated above:

"wheat ag improvements can help address gluten sensitivity issues in humans. i've previously posted links to research about the consequences of soil zn deficiency on glutenin/gliadin ratios in wheat and the implications for human gluten sensitivity. ...i also recall posting research about serum zinc levels in celiac patients at diagnosis, and research about improvements to serum zinc status in celiac patients when implementing gluten free diets. so, we recognize gluten has an impact on essential nutrient status. hence the recent calls for updates to DRIs for zinc, to account for zinc interactions with phytates and gluten in particular, and consequences for absorption."

if there isn't enough zinc in the soil to grow wheat that won't trigger the immune system, if a person doesn't combine mitigating animal proteins when consuming gluten, and if food information and choices result in zinc stores so poor that gluten consumption takes a noticeable negative toll, there are larger and more systemic issues in play that merely avoiding wheat won't address.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
jimmylegs
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Re: what's with wheat

Postby ElliotB » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:44 am

"ignores the solutions"

Perhaps you are missing the point, that avoiding wheat IS the solution, or for us with MS, at least a big part of it.
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Re: what's with wheat

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:26 am

it's the same kind of problem as using supplements to provide non essential nutrients, ie ones the body is supposed to make on its own. a crutch which doesn't address missing essential building blocks.
similarly, avoiding wheat panders to, rather than actively repairing, a broken system. some function is regained only by removing a food with some anti-nutrient effect, not by growing and preparing that food to minimize such effects, and adding sufficient nutrient dense foods to restore healthy functionality.

so I won't omit wheat any more, but I do choose sprouted flour and sourdough specifically for the reduction to gluten's antinutrient effects.
neither will I omit dark leafy greens or legumes due to their antinutrient phytate content. instead i'll prepare these in such a way as to minimize their phytate content.
neither will I omit whole foods with inflammatory qualities; rather these are consumed in appropriate balance with anti inflammatory foods.
neither will I give up physical exercise because it increases my body's nutritional requirements.
neither will I entirely omit even foods such as dairy and sugar, which I enjoy with tea or coffee, which increase zinc demand.

while I used to react badly to gluten inputs a decade ago, this is no longer the case. the result of providing the essential ingredients for a healthy, functioning system.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
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Re: what's with wheat

Postby NHE » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:32 pm

There are many people who can't eat wheat. My niece is one of them. She has collagenous gastritis. If she eats just one or two cookies baked with wheat flour, she'll be doubled over in pain. Furthermore, before she was diagnosed, she had become so anemic from internal bleeding caused by her reaction to wheat that it nearly killed her. Yes, sometimes avoidance is the best option.
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Re: what's with wheat

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:21 am

sorry to hear that your niece is one of the tens of people dxd with cg in the 28 yrs since it was first recognized. from available lit generated during this period, although no safe effective treatments area available, i'm sure you've seen this 2015 case study which is consistent with your niece's experience.

Collagenous gastritis: Review
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4360446/

Successful Treatment of Collagenous Gastritis in a Child With a Gluten-Free Diet.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26854316

specific research on nutrition dimensions for cg look to be very thin on the ground so far.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
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Re: what's with wheat

Postby NHE » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:09 am

jimmylegs wrote:Successful Treatment of Collagenous Gastritis in a Child With a Gluten-Free Diet.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26854316

specific research on nutrition dimensions for cg look to be very thin on the ground so far.


Yes, she's on a gluten and dairy free diet. Moreover, there are so many other "____" free dietary guidelines she follows that I can't keep track. So far, dietary interventions haven't cured the collagenous gastritis (her last endoscopy showed that it was still active), they do, however, allow her to function.
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