This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Community: Knowledge & Support

Absence of Epstein-Barr virus in the brain and CSF of patients with multiple sclerosis - http://www.msrc.co.uk/index.cfm/fuseact ... pageid/707

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Well, that changes things. And I had always thought the presence of EBV in us all explained the effectiveness of D3, HcCy and Rituximab.

Squiffy - did you miss the interesting EBV thread a couple of weeks ago? - 'Researchers find further evidence linking Epstein-Barr virus'

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-10536.html

The article you found was also mentioned by Dignan and I have repeated my reply below:



Coincidentally, there was another thread recently on TIMS ('Non MS Article') which was about how scientists now think that Alzheimer's plaques may be deliberately formed by the brain as a defense against invading bacteria and other microbes - even if these invaders are 'perceived' rather than actually active!

If something similar was causing MS plaques it would explain why they don't necessarily find evidence of active herpes attack.

For me the most likely explanation is that the mere presence (or hidden presence) of - EBV, VZV and other herpes viruses somehow acts as a threat or CATALYST and triggers what appears to be an autoimmune activity rather than because they are active.

If this is so, they can carry on searching as long as they want but they'll never find the evidence they're looking for because the viruses never need to be active, they never actually attack.


gainsbourg

Let me start by saying I generally have only the slightest grasp on some of the things getting discussed here.

That being said, the presence of EBV antibodies in the CSF always interested me, but not from the angle I've seen it discussed. Wouldn't their presence in CSF just be another indication of what we've long known in that the blood-brain barrier is damaged in MS patients? Permeable blood-brain barier allows EBV antibodies, which are in almost everyone's blood, in. From my limited understanding, I wouldn't be shocked to see other unexpected, though normally occuring in the body, elements in CSF of MS patients.

To me, it does not appear to be the smoking gun some make it out to be. If I am off base, I would really appreciate being corrected.

I think what we will find is that many different pathogens can trigger an autoimmune reaction by affecting cells in a local environment, so we are not going to find one culprit virus that we can blame everything on. I believe that EBV just happens to be the most effective at it because it gets into B cells (and other cell types) easily and affects that host cell. Other cells that are drawn to the site can also become infected with EBV and perpetuate the local problem. Adenoviruses may be implicated in some cases of MS, not as often as EBV, probably because they are not as effective at invasion. Bacteria also could have an effect but to a lesser degree. I think it is all about cells being pirated and forced into generating autoantigens by the pathogen. Those autoantigens are probably of endogenous origin (i.e. abnormal proteins of the host cell) for the most part, not necessarily from the pathogen hidden in the host cell. I also believe that there may be cases of autoimmunity that arise without a pathogen due to a genetic flaw or some genetic or epigenetic damage from some exogenous material other than a pathogen (virus or bacteria).

Wesley

I agree with this hypothesis and could see it as explaining the many of variations of "MS".

This line from the study throws me for a loop:



The control group were patients with inflammatory CNS diseases? This seems incredibly stupid.

Mose - that is a good point about the BBB and it made me think, but on the other hand why do the VZV antibodies in the CSF skyrocket only during MS attacks?

Biodoc and Rainer - the many different pathogens (various micro organisms) hypothesis is appealing because that's what's known to precede Guillain Barre Syndrome and CIDP (the "autoimmune" demyelinating peripheral equivalents of MS).

Rather than having a single cause, MS is like an equation for which not even one of the missing components is yet known for sure. For me, the presence of herpes (EBV or VZV) is the closest we are yet to identifying part of the equation:

Herpes + (?) + (?) = MS

I think the other factors will turn out to be nerve nutrient deficiency (eg Vit B12, D3, zinc or magnesium) coinciding at the exact time of initial onset of MS.

I'm convinced the crucial mystery component (at that fateful time of initial pathogenesis) will turn out to be stress. Stress is known to precede MS attacks so frequently. Stress is known to procede herpes attacks....and nobody knows why on both counts. Stress is a trigger.

As I have said before, MS may be a disease where the brain damages itself! Stress laden thoughts somehow compromise or damage the very tissue from which they originate. Stress may somehow trigger a pointless defensive action against the threat of herpes attack.



gainsbourg

I've dug up more about the coincidence of:

stress=MS attacks
stress=herpes attacks

Bear in mind that stress is the only factor known to frequently precede MS attacks.




gainsbourg