sbr487 wrote:scorpion wrote:Once again Sou I encourage you to read the "seven warning signs of quackery". Any of it sound familar? http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRel ... signs.html
Its one thing to say that researchers findings are flawed as far as CCSVI goes, and something else to say that someone like Zamboni, Sclafani, Sinan ... are all quacks ... only someone with a mentality of Freedman or Rose can make such statements ...
sou wrote:Scorpion, you have confused things a little.
Claiming that CCSVI does not exist is completely different than saying that we don't know the relation of CCSVI to MS. The article you posted refers to research that could not even detect CCSVI.
sbr487 wrote:Its one thing to say that researchers findings are flawed as far as CCSVI goes, and something else to say that someone like Zamboni, Sclafani, Sinan ... are all quacks ... only someone with a mentality of Freedman or Rose can make such statements ...
concerned wrote:sbr487 wrote:Its one thing to say that researchers findings are flawed as far as CCSVI goes, and something else to say that someone like Zamboni, Sclafani, Sinan ... are all quacks ... only someone with a mentality of Freedman or Rose can make such statements ...
What exactly is flawed about Colin Rose's mentality? Are you saying that you've mastered the concepts of cardiology and physiology to a greater degree than him and are comfortable saying that he's wrong about CCSVI?
jimmylegs wrote:question: does this line of discussion provide shocking new evidence that effectively lays to rest prior disagreement?
In the current issue of the Annals, Florian Doepp, M.D., and colleagues in Germany performed an extended extra- and trans-cranial color-coded sonography study on 56 MS patients (36 female; 20 male) and 20 control subjects (12 female; 8 male). The analysis included extra-cranial venous blood volume flow (BVF), internal jugular vein (IJV) flow analysis during Valsalva maneuver (VM), as well as tests included in the CCSVI criteria.
He wrote an open letter to the VU-team, questioning the statistical power and the method of their research. Dr. Beelen MD, checked 107 patients with MS and discovered ccsvi in about 90% of the cases. He also did treatment, including some stents. No complications. Publication will follow later.
Here is his letter---and the link to the thread discussing this on ThisIsMS.com
"Through a journalist my attention was just drawn to a report in a Dutch current affairs program on CCSVI.
In this report, there are quite a few disturbing elements.
1. They conclude from a very limited group of 20 people that there is no causal link. I wonder, what's the objective "statistical power" of a series of 20 patients.
2. The evaluation of the 20 patients, was it all done by the same team? Were the results independently verified?
Although our series is a long follow-up, I would like to show some results of our series of patients:
107 patients with confirmed MS were screened for CCSVI, in 97 patients CCSVI non-invasive (CT, Duplex) diagnosed (independently diagnosed by vascular surgeon and radiologist).
* 64-balloon dilatation
* 2 Valvulotome
* 8 cutting balloon
* 7 stenting
29 patients are monitored, using Doppler and using an internationally validated questionnaire (MSQOL-54 instrument) and after treatment as reported by every individual of these 29 patients, the quality of life has improved. Statistically, this is even more significant.
When the last patient in this group has reported, (one year follow up) results will be openly published.
Despite these figures both by us and in other centers, how can you, with a much smaller number of patients, go on saying that there is no link between MS and CCSVI? Would't it be logical to consider this theory, because of the spectacular results? Currently I still believe that CCSVI may not be the primary cause of MS, but in certain forms of MS it surely plays a very important role in the development of MS. I therefore call for a comprehensive inter-disciplinary dialogue so that the MS patients by a combination of classical pharmacological treatment and interventional treatment, can get the optimal treatment of the moment.
Roel Beelen, M.D.
As I've said before, the problem with the Doepp study was position of the doppler wand. It assessed jugular vein narrowing in the “sagittal” plane (the ultrasound probe is placed parallel to the length of the vessel). The Zamboni technique uses the “transverse” plane ( the probe is placed at a 90 degree angle to the length of the vessel) to look for narrowing, webs, or abnormal valves that Dr. Zamboni believes are often missed in the sagittal plane examination.
The CSA of the IJV was measured in the horizontal plane using B-mode imaging, carefully avoiding any compression of the vessel by the probe.
Regional narrowing of the IJV and VV was assessed by insonating their entire accessible length using the sagittal plane of the B-mode imaging. For assessment of the IJV additional measurements were obtained in the horizontal plane.
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