Placebos Work Even When Patients Know They're fake

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Placebos Work Even When Patients Know They're fake

Postby scorpion » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:42 pm

The power of the mind is amazing.


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Postby Lyon » Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:18 pm

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Postby debp » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:31 pm

Hmm...the Placebo pill is still a pill that has something in it? Presumably sugar?

Maybe someone in the study should ask the question, could it be that sugar could help treat IBS? This ingredient is probably a binder in other pills? Maybe the inert ingredient isn't as inert as they think?

Yeah it could be mind over matter or the body healing itself or the power of suggestion but what if...

Sorry my hot button at the moment is doctor's assuming that things are all in a patient's mind or the patient is stupid. There are other possible explanations, have they ruled them out?
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Postby Lyon » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:41 pm

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Postby lyndacarol » Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:24 pm

debp--I like the way you think, especially when you said:
Hmm...the Placebo pill is still a pill that has something in it? Presumably sugar?

Maybe someone in the study should ask the question, could it be that sugar could help treat IBS? This ingredient is probably a binder in other pills? Maybe the inert ingredient isn't as inert as they think?


IF IBS is caused by excess insulin damaging the inside of the intestines, sugar could temporarily improve the situation by tying up the insulin.

As I recall, the clinical trials of Tysabri years ago tested against a placebo of glucose. If excess insulin is fundamental to MS, such a placebo could make a great difference in test results.

Insulin is already known to be very caustic to the inside of blood vessels. Why can't it damage nerves as well? It is known to cross the blood brain barrier.
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Postby Lyon » Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:31 pm

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Postby debp » Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:00 pm

I haven't seen them in a while but several years ago here at thisisms there were a few study articles we had discussed which showed that the very act of a non MS specific medical procedure can have an impact on MS, for what that's worth.


I remember a while back someone posted a Parkinson's study drilling a hole in someone's brain and either inserting a drug or not. It worked on someone that didn't get the drug so they discount it as placebo effect instead of trying to figure out what they may have touched in his brain that gave him such a remarkable benefit. Maybe it would have been impossible to figure out or only worked for the one guy, but I am sure it would have made a difference to him if they made the effort instead of dismissing his 1 year of living a normal life as all in his head.

Just because I am stuck on the CCSVI theory at the moment the 1st thing that comes to mind on the non MS medical procedure, is I bet that going in for surgery gets your blood pumping. I will have to search the older posts and see what you guys came up with :)
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Postby Lyon » Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:44 pm

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Postby scorpion » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:22 pm

debp wrote:
I haven't seen them in a while but several years ago here at thisisms there were a few study articles we had discussed which showed that the very act of a non MS specific medical procedure can have an impact on MS, for what that's worth.


I remember a while back someone posted a Parkinson's study drilling a hole in someone's brain and either inserting a drug or not. It worked on someone that didn't get the drug so they discount it as placebo effect instead of trying to figure out what they may have touched in his brain that gave him such a remarkable benefit. Maybe it would have been impossible to figure out or only worked for the one guy, but I am sure it would have made a difference to him if they made the effort instead of dismissing his 1 year of living a normal life as all in his head.

Just because I am stuck on the CCSVI theory at the moment the 1st thing that comes to mind on the non MS medical procedure, is I bet that going in for surgery gets your blood pumping. I will have to search the older posts and see what you guys came up with :)


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Postby concerned » Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:19 pm

debp wrote:Hmm...the Placebo pill is still a pill that has something in it? Presumably sugar?


It was micro-crystalline cellulose, I believe.


I think the article Lyon was mentioning was by an alternative medicine practitioner in an alternative medicine magazine, if it's the same one I read. I'd say that's most likely a move to justify their career in the face of numerous studies saying that many alternative treatments have no real measurable clinical outcomes.
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Postby Loobie » Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:50 am

It's the power of Hope. There is nothing more powerful than hope when you need it; nothing.
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Postby lyndacarol » Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:52 pm

Lyon--to answer your question about whether the increased amount of sugar from a placebo (sugar pill) wouldn't worsen IBS if insulin is the source of damage to the intestines:

this animation from Dr. Oz may help with basic understanding of the insulin/glucose relationship: http://www.sharecare.com/question/what-is-insulin?partner=droz

Further information on insulin resistance (pancreas pumps out even more insulin in order to force the cells to accept the insulin – kind of like shouting to MAKE the cells hear!): http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/how-diabetes-affects-you

It seems to me that, at first, the increased sugar would be removed from the bloodstream because the sugar has prompted the pancreas to make additional insulin, which is overcoming the cell's resistance (in this process insulin is also removed from the bloodstream when it connects to the cell's wall, allowing the glucose to be swept into the cell).

When the sugar pill has been absorbed into the cells, the pancreas is slow to reset to normal and continues producing the very irritating insulin. In the long run, I think the symptoms of IBS return or even worsen, as you suggest.

I think the same thing occurs when we people with MS take steroids (glucocorticosteroids) – temporary improvement but eventual return of symptoms.

It seems to me like it could be possible.
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Postby concerned » Sat Dec 25, 2010 3:14 pm

lyndacarol wrote:Lyon--to answer your question about whether the increased amount of sugar from a placebo (sugar pill) wouldn't worsen IBS if insulin is the source of damage to the intestines:



I don't think the placebo being discussed was a sugar pill.
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Postby gainsbourg » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:16 am

Loobie wrote:It's the power of Hope. There is nothing more powerful than hope when you need it; nothing.


You are very close Loobie, but more specifically, it is the power of BELIEF (and this applies to hypnosis as well as placebo).

In order for hypnotic suggestion to work, people need to believe they are hypnotised and that subsequent improvements are taking place because of hypnosis. In order for a placebo drug to work people need to believe that improvements are happening because they are taking the actual drug and not a dummy substitute. (By the way these substitutes do not necessarily contain any sugar)

Last year a major research study in the UK by Irvin Kirch found that prescription drugs for depression work mostly because of placebo.

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/01/28/the- ... sants.html

I remember hearing about a man sentenced to death who was about to receive a lethal injection. They placed a blindfold over his eyes after the catheter was inserted into his wrist. A few moments later. the technician (executioner) accidentally brushed the man's wrist with the sleeve of his white coat. Thinking this sensation was the lethal drug entering his vein the young man died. No poison was ever released.

I have written many times on this forum about the latent power of the mind and body but sadly, many people are offended by this notion. This is because once you start investigating how the mind can heal, it inevitably leads on to the possibility that the mind is also a factor in creating and sustaining MS. The trouble is, that most doctors are so totally drug orientated these days they are dismissive about the latent power of the mind.

This attitude is ironic when you consider the possibiity that all drugs are working largely because of belief! Even more ironic is that doctors may be using the power of belief negatively, for example, when a doctor tells someone that cancer may kill them, it increase the chances that it will.


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Postby erinc14 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:55 pm

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