A new concept and treatment options for MS

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Postby Leonard » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:41 am

I am convinced I am in a vicious "sugar-circle". If I don't take enough sugar, I go downhill, I need that sugar. I have had a high sugar intake over the last years, lots of coca cola etc. Sugar intake used to be more effective than it is now..

But the high sugar intake causes many intense insulin cycles. That's bad and leads to a thickening of the vessel walls. Which in turn makes the uptake of glucose even more difficult. And you need even more sugar to meet the needs of the hungry brain cells. The production of cortisol then will get exhausted and the inflammatory response to the insuline will increase..

I understand that the ketones are a defensive mechanism for emergency situations. Too many ketones are dangerous and may lead to vessel wall inflammation and eventually edema. If I undertake more physical exercise than I can handle i.e. if I push myself beyond my own limtis, perhaps this ketone mechanism starts to work in me as well. It certainly is consistent with my experiences as the next day there will be a lot more "noise" on my head. Is this caused by the ketones that lead to more inflammation / or a situation of mini-edema?

As was suggested earlier on on this forum, I think that MS will fall apart into a number of diseases with similar symptoms and diagnostic profiles. For myself, the challenge will be to break the vicious sugar-circle.
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Postby lyndacarol » Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:13 pm

Just to add a little more information about fats:

On today's (April 5, 2011) program of the The Dr. Oz Show, one segment discussed low-fat foods and the connection to cancer. Once again the food companies have misled us – low-fat foods have replaced the fat with carbohydrates which lead to spikes in insulin which result in increased inflammation. This is a short, 4 minute video of the segment:

http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/5-wrong- ... ancer-pt-4

Fats have been given a bad rap; it may be that we need all fats, except trans-fats.

By the way, the part one video (about 2:00 in the video) warns against taking too much of the supplement vitamin E – it can be an anti-antioxidant in large doses; it can damage DNA.
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Postby jimmylegs » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:03 am

to my knowledge there is no toxicity from vit E in food.

supplements have been found to increase cancer risk in a study where they gave patients synthetic dL-alpha tocopherol. i do not know of a study which found increased cancer risk using natural or d-alpha tocopherol.

what happened in the synthetic e study was that it drove the natural ratio of vitamin e out of balance. ie synthetic vitamin e drove down the patients' natural levels of gamma tocopherol which works against the formation of tumours.

re dr oz i'm curious what form of vit e supplement was found to be anti-antioxidant and harmful to DNA, what the doses were, and the mechanism of action.

E complex supplements are available which do not use isolated alpha tocopherol, either synthetic (dL-) or natural (d-). look for a natural source vit e8 complex supplement containing four mixed tocopherols AND four mixed tocotrienols.
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Postby lyndacarol » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:54 pm

I just reviewed the video again from The Dr. Oz Show in which he discussed with Dr. Gretchen Phillips, M.D. his concern about a vitamin E/cancer connection. The discussion starts at 2:00 in this four-minute video:

http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/5-wrong- ... ancer-pt-1

He never distinguishes between synthetic and natural forms of the supplement; he does encourage getting vitamin E in food. The video explains what he thinks occurs in the creation of lung cancer.

http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/5-wrong- ... ancer-pt-2

In part two the doctors talk about the dosage – he suggests a maximum limit of 150 IU, saying that the amount in a multivitamin is much less.

I have no agenda in posting this here; it is only to let you know what is being said in the media.
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Postby jimmylegs » Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:44 am

150IU.. sounds low to me.. wish i knew exactly which study this conclusion is drawn from. here's a great google books link to vitamin e study review info
http://tinyurl.com/3o2spnp
(note that RRR-alpha vit E - read 'synthetic'!)

"Short-term (2-6 mo) or long-term (3yr) use of RRR-alpha-tocopherol supplements of 400 iu/d or 200 mg/d had no effect on oxidative damage to DNA, as measured by urinary excretion of 8-hydroxy-2'-deoxyguaosine (8-OHdG) in smokers and nonsmokers...
...Research has just begun to expand testing the efficacy of alpha tocopherol in Phase III trials, and to elucidate effects of other tocopherols, tocotrienols, and alpha tocopherol derivatives in in vitro and animal studies. Results form some observational epidemiological studies and a large-scale intervention trial suggest that alpha tocopherol may be important in preventing prostate, colorectal, and lung cancers. However, optimal use of vitamin E in regard to dosage, duration and composition remains uncertain. Because the use of alpha tocopherol supplements decreases serum concentrations of gamma tocopherol, and presumably other tocopherols and tocotrienols, concomitant use of all forms of vitamin E may confer more chemopreventive benefits than alpha tocopherol alone."
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Postby jimmylegs » Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:52 am

okay here's why i opened this topic today: interesting points on CBC radio, white coat black art. the topic was overdiagnosis and the guest was saying that managing diabetics by tryig to get them looking 'normal' had resulted in higher mortality. i went looking for the study and it's called 'accord'. turns out they were specifically managing glucose, which made me think of this topic. so here's some info about glucose management.

http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/index. ... le&id=5516
Accord Study Stops Intensive Diabetes Management Due To Increase in Deaths. Treating to normal blood sugars may cause an increase in death.

Effects of Intensive Glucose Lowering in Type 2 Diabetes
The Action to Control Cardiovascular Risk in Diabetes Study Group
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0802743
Background
Epidemiologic studies have shown a relationship between glycated hemoglobin levels and cardiovascular events in patients with type 2 diabetes. We investigated whether intensive therapy to target normal glycated hemoglobin levels would reduce cardiovascular events in patients with type 2 diabetes who had either established cardiovascular disease or additional cardiovascular risk factors.

Methods
In this randomized study, 10,251 patients (mean age, 62.2 years) with a median glycated hemoglobin level of 8.1% were assigned to receive intensive therapy (targeting a glycated hemoglobin level below 6.0%) or standard therapy (targeting a level from 7.0 to 7.9%). Of these patients, 38% were women, and 35% had had a previous cardiovascular event. The primary outcome was a composite of nonfatal myocardial infarction, nonfatal stroke, or death from cardiovascular causes. The finding of higher mortality in the intensive-therapy group led to a discontinuation of intensive therapy after a mean of 3.5 years of follow-up.

i'm curious what form the intensive therapy took.. no time to investigate further right now though.
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Postby Leonard » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:00 am

This thread on the ccsvi chapter of this forum on the consequences of venous hypoxia seems related:

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-16172.html
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Postby Leonard » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:32 am

I believe that MS is caused by a failure or malfunction of the ion pump (see my posting of 20 March 2011 9:21am above). The malfunction of the ion pump is due to a lack of micro-cellular feeding. See also for instance the paragraph on the effects on the brain because of impaired blood supply: http://drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/CFS_-_The_Ce ... al_Failure

I am not sure whether glucose management as such is the thing to do. I believe the real issues lie deeper in the micro-cosmos of our metabolism.

Clearly, diabetes type II medications like Metformin do things that interact much deeper in the micro-cellular metabolism than just helping the insulin with glucose absoption. Metformin gets to grips with a number of things closer to the ATP recycling, the Krebs' cycle, the mitochondrial functioning. Just googling a bit on key terms reveals that the exact mechanisms are not fully understood and the subject of a lot of research. But that it does things deeper in the metabolism is without question.

I found this an interesting explanation: http://www.bukisa.com/articles/126106_e ... gau-part-3
There is mention of a cocktail of nutritions that may reverse [in this case cardiac] damage due to mitochondrial induced failure. The cocktail includes magnesium and co-Q10. About the magnesium we know. See some postingas above. It is important to keep the balance right between K, Na, Ca for good nerve conduction.

The comment on the co-Q10 is interesting "This seems necessary to kick start the mitochondria, ..". This article then suggests low levels of co-Q10 in MS patients and its usefulness in treating MS, although not enough researched: http://www.lef.org/protocols/neurologic ... sis_02.htm
A link is made to Vitamine E recycling. And a number of other things are mentioned.

I know, we may be constructing our own world here, and risk to fall into the trap of our own perceptions. But one thing is blatantly clear to me: if I take the typical response times that my body needs for recovery of motor functions which is minutes, hours, a good rest, a night, a glucose shot, and not the months which you would typically expect in case of axonal/myeline breakdown and/or regeneration, the mechanism of the ion pump/mitochondria must be associated in some way with the MS disease.

Opening up the neck veins will improve the supply of energy to the affected parts of the brain and spinal column. But there may be effective medications and/or nutritutional strategies too to improve the mitochondria and supply of ATP to ensure the ion pump starts functioning again at normal speed. I just wish endocrinologists would pick up on this.
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Postby jimmylegs » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:39 am

metformin FYI

http://spectrum.diabetesjournals.org/co ... 4/202.full

Metformin and impaired renal function is a well-documented drug-disease interaction. Serum creatinine ≥ 1.4 mg/dl in women or ≥ 1.5 mg/dl in men warrants discontinuation of metformin because systemic concentrations can be elevated, increasing the risk of lactic acidosis.

Metformin. Although not because of a drug interaction, metformin should be taken with a meal to limit gastrointestinal side effects. Metformin may cause malabsorption of vitamin B12, which may result in B12 deficiency and subsequent anemia. The mechanism by which metformin causes malabsorption of B12 is not clearly defined, although oral or injected B12 (cyanocobalamin) or calcium supplementation may be effective for correction24,25 (Table 1).
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Postby jimmylegs » Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:02 am

i have not looked at coenzyme q10 for a while, because it is synthesized in human tissue when the proper nutrients are available. i did take it a few years ago but i stopped for reasons i can't quite recall, maybe it was as simple as 'my body needs nutrients to make coQ10.. and a whole bunch of other things.. if i need more coQ10 i probably don't have the basic nutrition right..'

more info:
Herb, nutrient, and drug interactions: clinical implications and therapeutic ... By Mitchell Bebel Stargrove, Jonathan Treasure, Dwight L. McKee, p.733

"Coenzyme Deficiency Symptoms

Most coQ10 in humans is internally synthesized. Genetic defects in coQ10 synthesis are considered rare at this time. Deficiency can be caused or aggravated by depletion or deficiency of any of the many nutrients required within this 17-stage synthetic pathway [JL: see link below, right pathway ends in coQ10], including riboflavin (B2), niacinamide (vitamin B3), pantothenic acid (vitamin B5), pyridoxine (vitamin B6), cobalamin (vitamin b12), folic acid, vitamin C, and several trace elements. As might be expected, given the central role of the HMG-CoA reductase enzyme in the coQ10 synthetic pathway [JL: see link below], HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors ("statins") which are widely prescribed for management of dyslipidemias and cardiovascular disease, have been implicated as an iatrogenic cause of coQ10 deficiencies."

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/S ... terol.html

i have to move on, for now. if anyone wants to track down which trace elements are involved that would be interesting.
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Postby Talisker » Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:37 am

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Postby tzootsi » Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:59 am

A promising spin off of CO-Q-10 is idebenone, which is supposedly a much more potent CO-Q-10 synthesys. It's actually in trials for PPMS.
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Postby Leonard » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:28 am

tzootsi wrote:A promising spin off of CO-Q-10 is idebenone, which is supposedly a much more potent CO-Q-10 synthesys. It's actually in trials for PPMS.


whow amazing, any references there?
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Postby tzootsi » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:47 am

Leonard wrote:
tzootsi wrote:A promising spin off of CO-Q-10 is idebenone, which is supposedly a much more potent CO-Q-10 synthesys. It's actually in trials for PPMS.


whow amazing, any references there?


http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT0 ... 248&rank=1

Idebenone is available at several on line vitamin shops.
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Postby Wonderfulworld » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:15 am

Been on Co-Q10 over 2 years now and have noticed nothing either positive or negative re. my MS.
Been taking 120mg of it for the last 9 months, before that it was a lower dose.
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Concussus Resurgo
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RR-MS dx 1998 and Coeliac dx 2003
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Copaxone, Cymbalta. EPO, Fish Oils, Vitamin D3 2000 IU daily, Cal/Mag/Zinc, Multivitamin/mineral, Co-Enzyme Q10, Probiotics, Milk Thistle.
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