A new concept and treatment options for MS

If it's on your mind and it has to do with multiple sclerosis in any way, post it here.

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:22 am

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15595263
Remission of multiple sclerosis post-liver transplantation.
A Caucasian woman with MS received an urgent liver transplant for fulminant liver failure at the age of 59. Her Extended Disability Scale Score (EDSS) pretransplant was 5.0 and clinically she had cerebellar and brainstem dysfunction. Post-transplant immunosuppression consisted of tacrolimus, mycophenolate mofetil and tapering corticosteroids that were discontinued after 1.5 years. Post-transplant her EDSS decreased to 2.0 and after three years she is clinically asymptomatic with only very mild dysarthria on neurologic examination. Long-term maintenance immunosuppression consists of low dose tacrolimus.

the authors appear to suggest that the immunosuppression drugs are involved with the recovery however, i think the effect of a new liver itself is more likely involved in recovery. the human liver "has well over 50 functions and is a critical organ in the body" functions include hydroxylating vitamin d3 (liver appears to require zinc to hydroxylate d3 to 25(OH)D3 but i have not nailed down the biochem yet), and the urea cycle (ie low zinc, low uric acid seen in ms mean the liver is not able to do its job properly)

2009 TIMS discussion on liver health:

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-53740.html#53740

includes '15 ways to love your liver' a good read :)
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Postby lyndacarol » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:42 pm

It is my understanding that the liver is a central player in metabolism; therefore, I think the article, "Remission of Multiple Sclerosis Post-Liver Transplantation," is VERY important to Leonard's hypothesis and my own with insulin. I agree with jimmylegs that the new liver, rather than any immunosuppression, may be responsible for the improved EDSS numbers, but for slightly different reasons than she believes.

Somewhere along the line, I have read that kale detoxifies the liver; could this be the mechanism that accounts for Dr. Terry Wahls' success with her diet? Perhaps she detoxified her liver by eating large amounts of kale.

I do not know what it is about kale that might detoxify the liver; I know it contains kaempferol, a flavonoid, which is also found in spinach, broccoli, onions, and endive. Flavonoids, in general, are known for a positive effect. Could it be that kaempferol detoxifies the liver?

I know that the omentum (largely responsible for belly fat) secretes toxins which affect the liver, causing high cholesterol, high blood pressure, even obesity (I think ALL these are the result of excess insulin; so I suspect these toxins from the omentum directly, or through the liver indirectly, cause my excess insulin levels.). This seems logical due to the fact that I cannot lower my insulin level through diet, even though I eat NO carbohydrates, sugar or starch (I eat only protein and fat)! In fact, my internist once told me that the body would stop producing insulin after three days without food – unsuccessfully, I even tried a three-day fast. Another clue is the fact that I have not been hungry for YEARS – the hormone leptin is produced in the liver and turns off appetite. More and more symptoms seem to lead me to my liver!

Dr. Wahls believes her regimen works by affecting the mitochondria; I begin to believe that the many servings of green leafy, non-starchy vegetables she prescribes are detoxifying the liver.

If the above suspicions are correct, MS is fundamentally a disease of endocrinology, rather than neurology! And has been for DECADES.

Kale, anyone?
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Postby Leonard » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:24 am

jimmylegs wrote:
2009 TIMS discussion on liver health:

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-53740.html#53740

includes '15 ways to love your liver' a good read :)


Thank you for this very useful information.

We had a short debate on Hepatisis-B vaccination and MS, a few posting up. Now, guess what.

Quote from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepatitis : Hepatitis (plural hepatitides) is a medical condition defined by the inflammation of the liver and characterized by the presence of inflammatory cells in the tissue of the organ. The name is from the Greek hepar (ἧπαρ), the root being hepat- (ἡπατ-), meaning liver, and suffix -itis, meaning "inflammation" (c. 1727).[1] The condition can be self-limiting (healing on its own) or can progress to fibrosis (scarring) and cirrhosis.

Hepatitis may occur with limited or no symptoms, but often leads to jaundice, anorexia (poor appetite) and malaise. Hepatitis is acute when it lasts less than six months and chronic when it persists longer. A group of viruses known as the hepatitis viruses cause most cases of hepatitis worldwide, but it can also be due to toxins (notably alcohol, certain medications, some industrial organic solvents and plants), other infections and autoimmune diseases. unquote.

I am shocked. I can not believe what I read: ... it [=Hepatitis of the liver] can also be due to .... autoimmune diseases. Stop a moment here. MS causing my liver to go wrong?

I believe that, after what I have learned from the thing and just like we have seen here several times before on this thread, the medical world has been looking the wrong way around! What I think is the case is that it is the liver that goes wrong and causes (what "they" call) the "auto-immune" disease!

You see here again an example of how huge the implications are of the dogmatic believe in the medical world in a concept (of auto-immunity) that will turn out to be dead wrong. Where in fact the damage done to the liver by the Hepatitis infection (even vaccination) may well provide an important clue to what's happening in our brain and why it inflammates. An inhibition of adequate supply of micro-cellular feeding of the brain (the idea of this whole thread) could well be an important underlying factor.

For me, one thing is becoming ever more plausible: MS is a disease of the metabolism (and related micro-cellular feeding) with an important contribution from the liver!

Personally I am running on a sugar metabolism with bad consequences for I am sealing my veins with a biofilm (MGmin-LDL that grows on sugar) and this will further weaken the transport of glucose. I need to get my metabolism back to run on fatty acids. I wonder wether the Hepatitis damage to the liver could provide us with a clue as to why the liver went wrong...

For further reference:
MS is a metabolically dependent, neurodegenerative disease:

http://www.direct-ms.org/pdf/Immunology ... immune.pdf

..environmental factors -- including metabolism and [ ] affect how specific sugars are added to proteins regulating the disease:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 115313.htm
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Postby jimmylegs » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:25 am

"but for slightly different reasons than she believes."

complementary reasons, lc, complementary reasons!

have i not been harping on the blind man and the elephant thing for years now?
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Postby Wonderfulworld » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:07 pm

Interesting becuase I had hepatitis from a glandular fever infection (mono) - it infected my liver. Then MS symptoms really kicked off about a year afterwards, although I did have some symptoms in my early teens.

Maybe the milk-thistle I take is helping a little...........................
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Concussus Resurgo
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RR-MS dx 1998 and Coeliac dx 2003
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Copaxone, Cymbalta. EPO, Fish Oils, Vitamin D3 2000 IU daily, Cal/Mag/Zinc, Multivitamin/mineral, Co-Enzyme Q10, Probiotics, Milk Thistle.
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Postby jimmylegs » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:19 pm

it does help a little, but zinc is a pretty basic building block...

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/zinc/

"Catalytic role

Nearly 100 different enzymes depend on zinc for their ability to catalyze vital chemical reactions. Zinc-dependent enzymes can be found in all known classes of enzymes (4).

Structural role

Zinc plays an important role in the structure of proteins and cell membranes. A finger-like structure, known as a zinc finger motif, stabilizes the structure of a number of proteins. For example, copper provides the catalytic activity for the antioxidant enzyme copper-zinc superoxide dismutase (CuZnSOD), while zinc plays a critical structural role (4, 5). The structure and function of cell membranes are also affected by zinc. Loss of zinc from biological membranes increases their susceptibility to oxidative damage and impairs their function (6).

Regulatory role

Zinc finger proteins have been found to regulate gene expression by acting as transcription factors (binding to DNA and influencing the transcription of specific genes). Zinc also plays a role in cell signaling and has been found to influence hormone release and nerve impulse transmission. Recently, zinc has been found to play a role in apoptosis (gene-directed cell death), a critical cellular regulatory process with implications for growth and development, as well as a number of chronic diseases (7). "
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Postby tara97 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:06 pm

the medical world is wrong because its corrupt. because the CDC, the AMA, the FDA are all in bed with the very corporations they are supposed to be regulating. because 30 years ago managed care happened and you can even go 90 years back and see evidence favoring profit not progress. because scientists hold patents and want to hord their discoveries so they can make their money back. because "the expert" opinion that we hear the loudest is the one promoted with the most money. he who has the most to financially gain from us believing their lie will spend the most money to get this theory across. they donate to universities and push their information into the texts. because you cant patent nutrition so no one wants to do research on it. because if the liver were truely the center of it all as I have always believed it is that means that environment is a key factor. no one wants us to know about the connections to our health and the environment. so they made up this autoimmune theory so it seems so random and unprovoked. not systemic like it really is. we really have a genetic predisposition to environmental vulnerability. because if you look at the truth you will see that there is no one at the wheel driving this thing. there is just theory after theory. they really dont know because they cant feel what we feel and correlate it with what we know. with all the different studies we have seen on this forum. we know that MS does not cause anything rather it is caused by something.
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Postby Talisker » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:51 am

Doing a quick Google search on "tacrolimus glycolysis" gave back a few hits.
The first one was interesting as it said one of it side effects was hyperglycemia. The paper said this was done by reduced glycolysis from reduced glucokinase activity. Glucokinase is an enzyme that controls the rate of glycolysis so controls the speed of energy produced from glucose. Which leads to more sugar in the blood but since less energy is produced then insulin is also reduced even with high blood sugar. This counters my ideas that brain cells are dieing from a lack of energy produced from glucose since tacrolimus slows down that energy production and seems to be beneficial.
Wiki on Glucokinase:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucokinase
Article:
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/288/2/E365.full
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Postby Leonard » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:22 am

and on we go: is the working mechanism of LDN via the liver?

Treating Hepatitis B With Low Dose Naltrexone
http://www.webspawner.com/users/ldnforhepb/index.html

and there may be other medications to get the liver back in order.
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Postby Taurus » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:44 pm

I have been reading this topic for some while now and found some of the observations very interesting. Question remains what is the ultimate suggested solution? Did any body tried it and what was the result? Forgive me for my impatience :roll:
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A big fat lie?

Postby Leonard » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:58 am

is sugar toxic?
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magaz ... f=magazine

What if it's all been a big fat lie?
<shortened url>

These articles from the New York Times align neatly with the theory on this thread. We are a little further in our analysis than the article, but perhaps also a bit more speculative at this point:

- the ultra-bad LDL cholesterol MGmin growing on sugar and sealing our veins with a biofilm which may explain why micro-cellular feeding will deteriorate and MS and/or diabetes / insulin resistance develop;

- saturated fats which are necessary for the production of (the active form of) Vitamin D and thereby improve the grips of insulin necessary for the micro-cellular feeding and thus help avoid MS and/or diabetes to develop.

Or, in other words, besides of course cleaning our liver from things that shouldn't be there, you might say there is the need to migrate from a glucose / sugar metabolism to a metabolism running on fatty acids.
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Postby Leonard » Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:46 am

The Swank and Ambrey diets promote low fat consumption to delay or halt the progression of MS. It seems therefore somewhat paradoxical to the call for more fat consumption (and less sugar) as suggested in the above posting. I have had questions to this end on a Dutch MS web forum. My reply may be of interest to you as well.

When my neck veins were narrowed (left IJV 85%, right IJV> 90%, Azygos 50%) I definitely benefitted from a low fat diet. To keep the blood thin and running. I have been on a low-fat diet for years and it certainly helped me while the progression stopped or slowed down.

Now that my neck veins are open (ccsvi liberation by repeated angioplasty) the noise in the head has disappeared. The headaches are gone, so are the night spasms. If I take more saturated fat, nothing will happen in my head, it just keeps quiet. That is very different from before when the noise increased substantially after I took a heavy meal with lots of fat. Indeed, I think that I even go better the next day after the intake of fats, e.g. mayonnaise and sausages, but that may of course be placebo. :wink:

I think the story of sugar vs. fat is no myth but in fact a very serious matter. Quote from the New York Times:

Walter Willett, chairman of the department of nutrition at the Harvard School of Public Health, may be the most visible proponent of testing this heretic hypothesis. Willett is the de facto spokesman of the longest-running, most comprehensive diet and health studies ever performed, which have already cost upward of $100 million and include data on nearly 300,000 individuals. Those data, says Willett, clearly contradict the low-fat-is-good-health message ''and the idea that all fat is bad for you; the exclusive focus on adverse effects of fat may have contributed to the obesity epidemic.''

These researchers point out that there are plenty of reasons to suggest that the low-fat-is-good-health hypothesis has now effectively failed the test of time. In particular, that we are in the midst of an obesity epidemic that started around the early 1980's, and that this was coincident with the rise of the low-fat dogma. (Type 2 diabetes, the most common form of the disease, also rose significantly through this period.) [Leonard adds: and possibly MS too] They say that low-fat weight-loss diets have proved in clinical trials and real life to be dismal failures, and that on top of it all, the percentage of fat in the American diet has been decreasing for two decades. Our cholesterol levels have been declining, and we have been smoking less, and yet the incidence of heart disease has not declined as would be expected. ''That is very disconcerting,'' Willett says. ''It suggests that something else bad is happening.'' unquote

<shortened url>

As a scientist I have great faith in all that comes from Harvard. As regards the statement ".. that something else bad is happening." I think this thread unveils a possible mechanism: it has everything to do with cholesterol, the production by the body of (the active form of) vitamin D that depends on a sufficient level of cholesterol and in turn the improved micro-cellular nutrition that follows on an increased level of Vitamin D. Good for your heart and brains …
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Postby lyndacarol » Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:13 pm

I think the MS diets that promote low-fat consumption are inadvertently reducing carbohydrates, starches and sugars, as well. In reducing the carbs and thereby reducing glucose in the bloodstream and, consequently, reducing the amount of insulin produced, the MS symptoms improve.

I think it is this excess amount of caustic insulin that damages the inside of blood vessels, causing the "sunburn feeling" (paresthesia) in my legs, stiffening and thickening smooth muscles of the urinary bladder and intestines… and perhaps causing the stenosis (narrowing) seen in CCSVI.
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Postby Talisker » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:49 am

I agree MS probably has a glucose component to the disease but I thought we became hypoglycemic during a relapse. So why do we have low blood sugar and not high blood sugar when the disease is most active?
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Postby lyndacarol » Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:28 pm

Talisker, normally the human body senses the amount of glucose in the bloodstream (in the portal vein); then, the pancreas secretes the appropriate amount of insulin to take care of that amount of glucose (although the pancreas always overcompensates for the amount of glucose – and if the diet regularly supplies a generous amount of glucose, this overcompensation becomes chronic, or the permanent way of functioning).

There can be an excess amount of insulin when there is too little glucose (hypoglycemia) OR too much glucose (hyperglycemia). If the cells are resistant to insulin, the pancreas pumps out even more insulin to FORCE the cells eventually to take in the glucose. All that insulin sweeps enough glucose out of the bloodstream (into the cells to be burned for energy or into adipose cells to be stored as fat) with the result of hypoglycemia

If the cells are resistant to insulin, and the cells absolutely will not allow the glucose to be escorted into the cells, too much glucose (hyperglycemia) remains in the bloodstream. The body will continue to detect high levels of glucose in the bloodstream and call for more insulin to be secreted.

I contend that it is this excess insulin that damages blood vessels, muscles, and eventually nerves. (FYI, insulin crosses the blood-brain barrier as well as being produced by brain neurons.) This damage (especially to the blood vessels) initiates the immune system to clean up and repair, which over achieves its mission.

The measurement of blood glucose determines whether a person is diabetic or not; it cannot tell a person if the insulin level is high or low; only a fasting blood insulin test can establish the insulin level.
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