Help - bladder issue advice really needed

If it's on your mind and it has to do with multiple sclerosis in any way, post it here.

Postby Wonderfulworld » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:35 am

Overall, just make sure you get some mag into you when it's not going up against d3 OR calcium. and no calcium at bedtime!

JL thank you for the detailed and measured info (as usual - you are a star!) - I am going to try the D3+Cal/Mag now and then Mag alone tonight before bed. Hopefully it will help a little. I appreciate your ideas and thanks for posting back.

Sharon - interesting article...if all else fails..............maybe I will have to go this route.

I am going to try to get an appt asap with neuro/urology clinic so that they can assess me while I'm bad.
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RR-MS dx 1998 and Coeliac dx 2003
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Postby jimmylegs » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:06 pm

no probs ww, hopefully it works!

if needed, give it a couple days to kick in.

if adjusting the combo and timing doesn't quite do it, you may need to up your daily mag intake and if that's the case, you might want to consider those other more absorbable forms than oxide.

keep us posted! :) i'm off to heat & eat a slice of magnesium pie (spinach, dill, parsley and green onions w feta in phyllo) :D

jimmmmmylegs
Last edited by jimmylegs on Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Wonderfulworld » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:39 pm

keep us posted! Smile i'm off to heat & eat a slice of magnesium pie (spinach, dill, parsley and green onins w feta in phyllo) Very Happy

jimmmmmylegs

Hehe sounds very tasty, enjoy mmmmmmmmmmmm :lol: [/quote]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Concussus Resurgo
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RR-MS dx 1998 and Coeliac dx 2003
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Copaxone, Cymbalta. EPO, Fish Oils, Vitamin D3 2000 IU daily, Cal/Mag/Zinc, Multivitamin/mineral, Co-Enzyme Q10, Probiotics, Milk Thistle.
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Postby jimmylegs » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:51 pm

thx it was! yum :D
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neuro

Postby leetz » Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:01 pm

neuro-genic bladder? when i am in a "flare-up" nothing help's...maybe a flare-up symptom, or to high a dose of urinary med's/bladder control...also, when i am constipated (sorry, but true) I tend to have to pee like every 15 mins. too, and I take vesicare for urinary frequency....not a doctor, but maybe this could be the issue...
GOD BLESS.... CCSVI treatment Dr. Siskin great doc....symptom's improved for about 3 week's (gait, balance, spasticity) now back to square 1...
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Postby Bear2 » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:47 am

I was getting up 5-6 per night no matter what I did. 9 months ago, I started IBT, at first 4 inches than after 2 months, I went up to 6 inches. After this, I only get up once, about 530am and sometimes never get up.

When I did the CCSVI procedure the last time in Sept 2010, I started sleeping flat after 1 month then I lost all of the gains from that procedure, one of which was not getting up and going pee.

I started having to get up 5-6 times to go pee. I went back to 6 inch incline and now I'm back to only getting up @ 530 or not at all.

During the day, I have an overactive bladder and have tried Detrol and Enable X. Detrol did nothing but Enable X was great but had a side effect of constipation, very bad so I do nothing except know where every bathroom is no watch my fluid intake.

Bottom line, IBT works for me.
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Postby Wonderfulworld » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:19 am

Hi Leetz and Bear,
Leetz, sorry I should have said yes, I do have neurogenic bladder for definite! - it's just that it has gone really severe in the last 2 months. Normally it is manageable, but not in the last while.

Bean-
I was getting up 5-6 per night no matter what I did. 9 months ago, I started IBT, at first 4 inches than after 2 months, I went up to 6 inches. After this, I only get up once, about 530am and sometimes never get up.

That's super the IBT works for you - I'm envious! I got a 6 inch wooden wedge for my bed, and I've slept with a 6inch incline for the last 8 months - sadly, there has been no difference for me at all.

The last 2 nights I've managed to get a fairly ok nights' sleep. I think a combo of the magnesium at bedtime, and the jumping up and down before voiding are helping. Thanks x
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Concussus Resurgo
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RR-MS dx 1998 and Coeliac dx 2003
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Copaxone, Cymbalta. EPO, Fish Oils, Vitamin D3 2000 IU daily, Cal/Mag/Zinc, Multivitamin/mineral, Co-Enzyme Q10, Probiotics, Milk Thistle.
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Postby jimmylegs » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:40 am

hi ww

that's great that your sleep has improved some!

i found this link on neurogenic bladder and sure enough the pharma approach is to treat the spasm.

http://www.healthtree.com/articles/blad ... eurogenic/
As for medication, doctors usually prescribe:
*anticholinergic drugs (drugs that inhibit the communication of certain nerve cells)
*antispasmodics (drugs that prevent certain muscles from contracting)
*muscle relaxants

i notice they don't mention magnesium specifically.. not sure if there are any studies to find out whether ms patients are deficient in pharma antispasmodics or muscle relaxants, but i did find this:

http://www.sid.ir/en/VEWSSID/J_pdf/118620080207.pdf
Assessment of Serum Magnesium, Copper, and Zinc Levels in Multiple Sclerosis (MS) Patients
Mean serum levels of magnesium, copper, and zinc in MS patients were significantly lower than control group (1.87 ± 0.37 , 110.7 ± 19.5 , 85.4 ± 13.5 VS. 2.22 ± 0.24 , 133.7 ± 13.4, 110 ± 8.3 respectively) (P< 0.001).


here's the units conversion, hopefully displayed in a more readable fashion (c = control):

magnesium
mg ms 1.87 mg/dl x0.411= 0.77 mmol/L
mg c 2.22 mg/dl x0.411= 0.91 mmol/L


copper
cu ms 110.7 µg/dL x0.157= 17.4 µmoI/L
cu c 133.7 µg/dL x0.157= 21.0 µmoI/L

zinc
zn ms 85.4 µg/dL x0.153= 13.1 µmoI/L
zn c 110 µg/dL x0.153= 16.8 µmoI/L

so just looking magnesium, usually the reference range for magnesium is given as 0.70-1.10 mmol/L but in the research 0.90 mmol/L has been identified as a minimum.

this tells us two things. one, if you as an ms patient go for a serum mg test, you will fall inside the reference range and be told it's all good.

two, the research i usually go to as a source for minimum status is pretty bang on compared to the above finding of 0.91 mmol/L in controls

here's that research re mag status (2004): http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/23/6/730S
In patients with Mg serum values lower than 0.9 mmol/l Mg, magnesium supplementation is recommended; for patients with values lower than 0.8 mmol/l, starting Mg supplementation is necessary. We recommend that a Mg serum value of 0.9 mmol/l Mg be considered as the lower reference limit, in evaluating symptoms or diseases suspected as being associated with Mg deficiency. In this case, Mg has to be used as a first choice therapy.


next study: does replenishing magnesium work?

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract
The effect of magnesium oral therapy on spasticity in a patient with multiple sclerosis
The effects of magnesium glycerophosphate oral therapy on spasticity was studied in a 35-year-old woman with severe spastic paraplegia resulting from multiple sclerosis (MS). We found a significant improvement in the spasticity after only 1 week from the onset of the treatment on the modified Ashworth scale, an improvement in the range of motion and in the measures of angles at resting position in lower limbs. No side-effects were reported and there was no weakness in the arms during the treatment.
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Postby koopico » Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:57 pm

Jimmylegs, you know everything! :) Great info!

WW, I've had a very similar issue for years, where I go to the bathroom, get back in the bed, and feel like I have to go a minute later! I haven't had a good night's sleep in over a decade--and boy does this contribute!

Getting a magnesium supplement--JL, you say glycinate's the best?
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Postby jimmylegs » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:11 pm

koopico, i'm so glad you are finding this topic useful!!

of course dietary sources are always best, daily servings of dark leafies like chard, kale, spinach, etc.

as far as oral supplements go, yes, glycinate appears to be the most easily absorbed. i've seen it in a tablet (carlson) or a capsule containing powder (new roots, 'bisglycinate').

if you go with the capsule powder form, i would suggest taking it just before a good-sized meal. i had negative effects from taking it on an empty stomach.

hope that helps! let us know if it works for you :)

what else do you take for supplements koo, iima?

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Postby gibbledygook » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:12 pm

Hi, I hope you enjoyed the wine of a few nights ago. Sometimes a drink helps. I have also enjoyed smoking a joint with a glass of wine. This definitely has an effect on my bladder control but it has usually INCREASED my hesitancy whilst blurring my urgency. So I'm not sure it's helpful.


I think the inclined bed therapy may have assisted my bladder. Have you heard about IBT and just adjusting your bed to improve blood flow?
3 years antibiotics, 06/09 bilateral jug stents at C1, 05/11 ballooning of both jug valves, 07/12 stenting of renal vein, azygos & jug valve ballooning,
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Postby jimmylegs » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:25 pm

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-155143.html#155143
I got a 6 inch wooden wedge for my bed, and I've slept with a 6inch incline for the last 8 months - sadly, there has been no difference for me at all.
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Postby jimmylegs » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:35 pm

hey there CD, just curious re the comment that magnesium may not work on the bladder. why would it not?
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desmopressin really helped me

Postby seeker » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:03 pm

I was having horrible bladder problems. They're still not solved but things have been dramatically improved since my neurologist prescribed desmopressin acetate a few years back. It's a nasal spray. Just puff it a few times and the bladder urgency miraculously stops for me. Ask your neurologist about it. Hope it works for you as well as it has for me. In fact it's really the only ms symptom drug I've tried (and I've tried a ton because most everything is affected) that actually makes a real difference.

Good luck.
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Postby Wonderfulworld » Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:08 pm

Seeker would you believe another MS-friend suggested Desmospray too, she swears by it. I asked my GP for it but her refused, saying it was mainly for children who bedwetted! He prescribed Solifenacin (anticholingeric) for me last week, but it seemd to make the situation worse, not better.
I am hoping to phone the Urology dept in my hospital to see can they make an appt for me asap.
I will return to my GP and ask for Desmospray if all else fails!
Thanks for the suggestion.
:D
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Concussus Resurgo
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RR-MS dx 1998 and Coeliac dx 2003
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Copaxone, Cymbalta. EPO, Fish Oils, Vitamin D3 2000 IU daily, Cal/Mag/Zinc, Multivitamin/mineral, Co-Enzyme Q10, Probiotics, Milk Thistle.
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