Where Did MS Come From?

If it's on your mind and it has to do with multiple sclerosis in any way, post it here.

Postby Melody » Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:44 pm

Nick wrote:
I think the relationship between MS and mercury is speculative at best. Certainly there are instances of neurological symptoms of mercury poisoning but the distinct epidemiology demonstrated by MS cannot, in my and others opinion, be satisfied by a reaction to mercury.

Nick


Then again since MS reacts differently in each individual it stands to reason IMO it is caused by different Toxins added to the body. My husband has loads of food allergens which are then considered Toxins to his system maybe someone else is intolerant to mercury. I don't take chances with it as I try to only eat fish from lakes that are way further North than my place as I'm leery on the lake quality as we are fairly populated. It was one of the reasons I added flax rather than fish oil to hubby's daily meal 8O of supplements. Everyone needs to know exactly how their body reacts to different foods as well as environmental toxins. Limit them as well as reduce inflammation and you stand a good chance of staying in control. Diet is way more important then they let on so just maybe some of the other's are as well it's just more individualized then suspected. Opinions only not facts. :wink:
John was diagnosed Jan 2005. On lipitor 20mg .On Copaxone since July 4,2005. Vitamin D3 2000iu-4000iu (depending on sunshine months)June 10 2005(RX::Dr. O'Connor) Omega 3 as well Turmeric since April 2005. Q10 60mg. 1500mg liquid Glucosamine Nov 2005.
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Postby bromley » Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:58 pm

Nick,

You've expresses some strong opinions about the cause of MS. In summary you appear to be of the view that genes make an individual susceptible to this disease and the diets of those individuals triggers and disease.

I would be grateful for your input on the following:

(i) How diet might contribute to the higher prevalence of ms in females.
(ii) How diet might contribute to the onset of MS at different ages (the lowest age at which MS has been diagnosed is two and a half and some are diagnosed later in life (50s and 60s)).
(iii) Why some get Primary Progressive MS - does diet play a role in this form of MS?

I may have missed it, but do you have MS and, if so, for how long? If you have MS how as diet helped you?

Is there any data on those that follow the diet you suggest e.g. data on how they have done in relation to their MS?



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Postby Melody » Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:24 pm

I often wonder if it is really more prevalent in women or is it that men don't like to admit to a weakness. Hubby would never have admitted to it with out me saying something is wrong. He for some reason got mixed up with weakness that can be controlled to one that can't . I might add since we have been diagnosed and have a game plan the weakness in limbs is gone. Just asking questions in my own head out loud. What do you guys think.? The support group I'm in is actually probably 70% men to 30% women. What are your groups like????? Is it like the vote for a strike where they say 80% wanted the strike but you can't find one fellow worker who wants to strike??? Is it men can't afford to have MS as they are usually the major footings for the household and they are frightened of loosing their jobs? To many questions scant on answers. Once again just thinking out loud. Actually rambling :lol: :lol: :lol:
John was diagnosed Jan 2005. On lipitor 20mg .On Copaxone since July 4,2005. Vitamin D3 2000iu-4000iu (depending on sunshine months)June 10 2005(RX::Dr. O'Connor) Omega 3 as well Turmeric since April 2005. Q10 60mg. 1500mg liquid Glucosamine Nov 2005.
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Rambling is good for research

Postby heyjude » Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:24 pm

Hi Melody,

Please, ramble away - you too Nick! We never know when one of us may just ramble on to something very significant for researchers. Wish I could stay longer, but have a busy weekend coming. Look forward to more of your "ramblings" when I get back.

Warm Regards, :wink:
Jude
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Postby BioDocFL » Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:29 am

[quote="Nick"]
Furthermore the source of the activation almost assuredly must be a foreign protein.


I believe that a role for foreign proteins is a possibility in MS but IMO I don't feel it almost assuredly must be. There are too many things we don't know yet. If we look at lupus, (which has CNS problems and an autoimmune reaction and which is one possibility considered when many MSer first presents symptoms) the appearance of auto-antibodies to DNA most closely parallels a flare up of lupus. And anti-DNA antibodies occur in 90-95% of lupus patients. Auto-antibodies against histones (proteins associated with DNA) occur in ~60-70% of lupus patients. Auto-antibodies against other proteins (such as Ku or La antigens) occur less frequently. The appearance of auto-antibodies to proteins do not follow as closely a flare up as do the anti-DNA antibodies. The free DNA circulating in lupus patients's sera is at least 95% if not entirely endogenous (i.e. not foreign). That suggests that endogenous DNA may have a role in triggering the autoimmune reaction in lupus. Proteins may be targeted because of their association with DNA and RNA, epitope spreading. There are plenty of other theories for lupus though which blame foreign proteins, genetics, or viruses.
Lupus may be quite different from MS or it may be a similar mechanism just occurring primarily in different tissue types and therefore different consequences. I am wondering why foreign proteins would appear in specific sites and (if there is a female bias to MS) why more so in women. I need more details than just saying it is differences in hormones. How do the hormones cause the difference specifically? The foreign proteins may appear in specific sites where viral activity in a few cells is active but, again, we are hunting for the elusive 'MS virus'. It may be reemergence of EBV or some other virus that has been latent.
What interests me is the incidents where MS suddenly appears in an area, such as the islands where the British soldiers were stationed in WWII. Perhaps they dug new water wells and that brought into play some heavy metals or perhaps it provides a stop-off for migratory birds that contaminated the water in some way. There was another incident in the Florida Keys where a new water system was developed and local residents started showing an increase in MS. That's where I first heard of the migratory bird theory.
Anyway, I'm thinking foreign proteins are a possibility but I am also thinking of other possibilities just as much.

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Postby kitkat2 » Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:50 am

BioDocFL wrote:
Nick wrote:Furthermore the source of the activation almost assuredly must be a foreign protein.


I believe that a role for foreign proteins is a possibility in MS but IMO I don't feel it almost assuredly must be. There are too many things we don't know yet. If we look at lupus, (which has CNS problems and an autoimmune reaction and which is one possibility considered when many MSer first presents symptoms) the appearance of auto-antibodies to DNA most closely parallels a flare up of lupus. And anti-DNA antibodies occur in 90-95% of lupus patients. Auto-antibodies against histones (proteins associated with DNA) occur in ~60-70% of lupus patients. Auto-antibodies against other proteins (such as Ku or La antigens) occur less frequently. The appearance of auto-antibodies to proteins do not follow as closely a flare up as do the anti-DNA antibodies. The free DNA circulating in lupus patients's sera is at least 95% if not entirely endogenous (i.e. not foreign). That suggests that endogenous DNA may have a role in triggering the autoimmune reaction in lupus. Proteins may be targeted because of their association with DNA and RNA, epitope spreading. There are plenty of other theories for lupus though which blame foreign proteins, genetics, or viruses.
Lupus may be quite different from MS or it may be a similar mechanism just occurring primarily in different tissue types and therefore different consequences. I am wondering why foreign proteins would appear in specific sites and (if there is a female bias to MS) why more so in women. I need more details than just saying it is differences in hormones. How do the hormones cause the difference specifically? The foreign proteins may appear in specific sites where viral activity in a few cells is active but, again, we are hunting for the elusive 'MS virus'. It may be reemergence of EBV or some other virus that has been latent.

((This certainly brings to mind the once-theorized connection between red measles and ms.[I had measles @ 17 yrs of age]))

What interests me is the incidents where MS suddenly appears in an area, such as the islands where the British soldiers were stationed in WWII.

((This, again, suggests an infectious, possibly even contagious origin. Maybe vector-borne?))

Perhaps they dug new water wells and that brought into play some heavy metals or perhaps it provides a stop-off for migratory birds that contaminated the water in some way.

((I have always suspected that iron in drinking water may be related.))


There was another incident in the Florida Keys where a new water system was developed and local residents started showing an increase in MS. That's where I first heard of the migratory bird theory.
Anyway, I'm thinking foreign proteins are a possibility but I am also thinking of other possibilities just as much.

Wesley
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Postby kitkat2 » Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:51 am

The ((...)) being my thoughts in the ^^ matter.

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Postby Nick » Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:24 pm

Melody

I can't envision mercury as a prime causal mechanism of MS, not even for some individuals. The stance of MS being a condition of autoimmunity is well established in my mind. Thus any causal factor must satisfy the process of the immune system attacking self. While mercury is toxic to humans, the biochemical process of autoimmunity does not allow for the molecular composition of mercury to be mistaken for self tissue. There is no evidence in I am aware of to compel one to think mercury shares the same molecular structure as self tissue. The mechanism of molecular mimicry must be honored in order to postulate something as causal for MS.

b

bromley wrote:(i) How diet might contribute to the higher prevalence of ms in females.

This is a tough one. The speculations provided by Lisa and Melody are as good as I could offer.

bromley wrote:(ii) How diet might contribute to the onset of MS at different ages (the lowest age at which MS has been diagnosed is two and a half and some are diagnosed later in life (50s and 60s)).


I feel that MS and the "types" of MS are an interaction of a number of variables. Such factors of individual immune system aggressiveness, latitude of residence, degree of exposure to causal proteins, degree of exposure to protective factors, etc. The culmination of these are the determinant of age of onset and the degree of MS disability.

bromley wrote:(iii) Why some get Primary Progressive MS - does diet play a role in this form of MS?


As I stated above, the interaction of variables will determine the type of MS. At one end of the spectrum, consider the migrants from Great Britain to Queensland, Australia who enjoyed an 80% drop in risk of MS. I attribute this to an overwhelming amount of immunoregulatory vitamin D which negated the influence of the other factors.

bromley wrote:
I may have missed it, but do you have MS and, if so, for how long? If you have MS how as diet helped you?


Unfortunately yes. I consider myself to have had MS (optic neuritis as a teenager) for at least 25 years, most likely my entire life, although I was diagnosed 15 years ago when my RR morphed into chronic progressive. Diet revision has stopped the progress of my MS cold aside from when I contract a viral infection. Fortunately I've only had the flu twice in the past eight years since I revised my diet.

I still have neurological damage which impairs my right leg and arm but I feel very well and consider my overall state of being now, compared to pre-diet revision days, as I would day and night.

bromley wrote:Is there any data on those that follow the diet you suggest e.g. data on how they have done in relation to their MS?


No hard data for MS aside from heaps of anecdotal accounts. This why Direct-MS is trying to conduct a clinical trial testing the diet hypothesis. There are however other AI diseases for diet have been shown to be very effective. Celiac disease is of course the most prominent.

BTW I am nothing if not opinionated and I like to think I maintain my convictions unless I find valid reasons not to.

Wesley

I don't think the rationale you mention for lupus eliminates foreign proteins. Molecular mimicry accounts for antibodies to both self and foreign proteins being present. Did the cases you allude to test for the presence of antibodies to not only self but for many different types of proteins identified as having a similar molecular composition to self. This would be an onerous undertaking for sure but the presence of anti-DNA antibodies to me does not preclude foreign proteins to be an instigator. On the contrary, I would expect it. Something though must compel the immune system to turn against self.

I've posted here before the study by Guggenmos et al (2004) who demonstrated that antibodies (agents of the immune system) found in the cerebrospinal fluid of a population of people with MS, were reactive to both brain tissue and cows milk. The authors found cross reactivity between a protein in cow’s milk (butyrophilin(CMP)) and brain tissue (myelin oligodendrocyte glycoprotein(MOG) in 34% of the 35 people with MS in the study, a rate significantly higher than in healthy controls.

This is not to say that butyrophilin is the cause of all MS'ers state of MS. It is but one of the many proteins found in cow's milk and dairy is only one of five possible food protein groups with the ability to be causal for autoimmunity. In the above example it happened to be the one third of the study group showed this particular protein to be causal. Consider what would have been the percentage had they tested for all of the proteins found in milk AND the other food proteins such as gluten (gliadin).

This work is critical evidence of molecular mimicry in action. -a display of immune activity against both self tissue and a foreign body.

With repect to the Faroes situation, this an excerpt from Multiple Sclerosis and Food Hypersensitivities

One of the most interesting and widely quoted epidemiological studies of MS is that of the greatly increased prevalence of MS in the Faroe Islands (North Atlantic, west of Norway) following the occupation by 1500-2000 British troops between 1941 and 1944 (Kurtzke, 1977, 1980, 1995). Kurtzke has classified this increase as an epidemic although other authors have challenged this view (Benedikz et al., 1994, Poser et al. 1988). Regardless, there can be no doubt that MS prevalence substantially increased in the Faroes following the British occupation. Furthermore, the relationship between MS in the Faroe islanders and the presence of British soldiers is strongly supported by the fact the cases of MS all occurred in islanders who lived close to British bases (Kurtzke, 1980, fig. 15). This is an extremely important constraint because it demonstrates that the environmental factor is not solely indigenous and can transported from one area to another. Any interpretation of the cause of MS must satisfactorily explain the sudden increased prevalence in the Faroes and the mobility of the environmental factor.

The devil they say, is in the details.

Cheers
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Postby BioDocFL » Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:13 pm

As far as mercury being an instigator, or some other heavy metal, one thing we should consider is that some metals, such as nickel, can stablize DNA in alternate conformations, such as Z-DNA. This could lead to an auto-antigenic reaction to the DNA since these stablized conformations may not be encountered with enough frequency by the immune system under normal conditions to develop sufficient tolerance. Proteins and protein complexes, such as myelin, could be disrupted by the presence of heavy metal ions. These ions may alter the topology of the protein complexes into epitopes that the immune system doesn't recognize. Also the heavy metals can aid in the creation of free radicals that can damage the DNA. This could lead to apoptosis in immune system cells and result in a loss of control.
So it may not be the mercury itself that binds antigen receptors, I'll agree there, but it might be some endogenous molecules that are altered by the mercury that are binding the receptors and provoking a response.

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Postby Melody » Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:05 pm

Nick wrote:
Unfortunately yes. I consider myself to have had MS (optic neuritis as a teenager) for at least 25 years, most likely my entire life, although I was diagnosed 15 years ago when my RR morphed into chronic progressive. Diet revision has stopped the progress of my MS cold aside from when I contract a viral infection. Fortunately I've only had the flu twice in the past eight years since I revised my diet.

Nick interested to know if you are gluten intolerant or did you give up gluten just because. I had hubby tested for Gluten intolerance or Celiac disease. Now we chose not to remove unless he showed an intolerance. He did not. I've do limit dairy to no more than 15g(try to stick to 10g) daily of sat fats. We are 100% happy with the improvements we have seen. I swear by turmeric as well as fresh ground flax seed daily to reduce inflammation. Hubby like you is not prone to viral infections but that's likely as we have so many kids in and out that out immunities are pretty good. I also tend to be big on natural immune booster's as well as leaning on vitamin c big time. I know that I can stop a cold in it's tracks just by boosting vitamin C levels to 5000mg a day for 3-4 days. Normal times we take 1000mg ester C per day. I work at keeping hubby's immune system at peak as his decline started after we gave up Martial arts due to optic neuritis. I still believe he caused that episode by over heating to the extreme where he forced a reaction. I believe he was likely predisposed to MS just by things I've read but I also believe if we hadn't so panicked over the optic neuritis and kept on out original path of healthy foods as well as exercise we would not have gotten to the point where he was limping around with burning pain and numbness. We buried our heads in the sand from 1998 till Jan 2005 and the weakness just got worse. Since Feb 2005 when we took back control of our lives and stopped living like this was the last day walking(partied way to much and health declined)everything has improved. Diet has to be a major contributor as well as life style. Knowledge is power even if sometimes our knowledge seems pretty lacking compared to some of our poster's here. I think by next year same time I might be able to decipher half of what I read here as right now I'm sometimes lost. :lol: :lol: :lol:
John was diagnosed Jan 2005. On lipitor 20mg .On Copaxone since July 4,2005. Vitamin D3 2000iu-4000iu (depending on sunshine months)June 10 2005(RX::Dr. O'Connor) Omega 3 as well Turmeric since April 2005. Q10 60mg. 1500mg liquid Glucosamine Nov 2005.
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