Study finds shingles may be related to elevated MS risk

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Study finds shingles may be related to elevated MS risk

Postby MSUK » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:45 pm

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Taiwanese investigators have found that there can be a significantly higher risk of multiple sclerosis (MS) occurring in the year following a shingles, or herpes zoster, attack. The findings, which support a long-held view on how MS may develop, are published in The Journal of Infectious Diseases and now available online.

MS is an autoimmune disease that affects the brain and spinal cord, leading to inflammation and nerve damage as the body's immune cells attack the nervous system. Possible causes that may trigger the inflammation include environmental, genetic, and viral factors. One virus that has been associated with MS is varicella zoster virus, the cause of herpes zoster. ... Read More - http://www.msrc.co.uk/index.cfm/fuseact ... ageid/3175
MS-UK - http://www.ms-uk.org/
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Postby gainsbourg » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:18 am

This doesn't surprise me in the least as I have been saying for years there is a strong causal link between herpes in general and MS. How much more evidence will it take before people take this more seriously?

One of the only factors of any kind known to often precipitate MS attacks is an episode of physical or mental stress.

Odd that -when you consider that this is also the only factor consistently asscociated with bouts of shingles. Sheer coincidence?

When stress stimulates herpes into action - the immune system is also stimulated to fight the herpes. I believe that in the case of MS, unlike shingles, the herpes remains dormant (in the nerve root ganglia) but for some reason the immune system mistakenly attacks the healthy nerve tissue instead. This would account for why herpes antibodies are found in the spinal fluids of those with MS but very rarely in the CFS of controls. During MS attacks herpes antibodies in the CFS increase about 500 fold.

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Herpes

Postby jam » Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:27 pm

I agree, I also wrote some time ago that I have herpes. My husband has also lost hearing in one ear due to tinnitus, he has contacted herpes I guess it was from me. I am now worried about my daughter who had shingles as a baby. I am feeling it is lying in wait!


For those who say they don't have it. It can lay dormant in your system and you may not know you have it.

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Postby gainsbourg » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:00 am

Herpes attacks are known to sometimes initiate Guillaine Barre Syndrome (GBS) - an MS type illness of the peripheral nervous system which has a sudden onset. It's near impossible to detect if anything precedes MS because the onset is so gradual.

Surprisingly, bee stings, snake bites and jelly fish stings have also been known to trigger GBS - the reason being a complete mystery. I believe it is because the common denominator is the stimulation of herpes. Venom is known to have a big effect on the herpes virus. In fact cobra venom is thought to be the only substance in the world that completely destroys the herpes virus.

There have been so many incidences where venom of one kind or another has been reported as having been effective in treating MS. It wouldn't surprise me if this turns out to be because venom can kill or inhibit all types of herpes virus types.

Of course nothing sounds sounds more like 'snake oil' than venom therapy! A promising treatment against herpes using venom extract - Herpoxin - was developed in 1997 but it was refused a licence by the FDA. Also, Bill Haarst, the snake expert, produced a promising drug that a Miami doctor used at a clinic to treat multiple sclerosis patients. But the Food and Drug Administration closed down the clinic.

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Connection b/w Herpes & Multiple Sclerosis

Postby Sandeep » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:54 am

I'm agree with Mr. gainsbourg.


My wife diagnosed MS and she noticed that just before a MS relapse she has a tiny spot with severe pain.
The burning sensation form half-circles around the body. The pain and subsequent rash correspond to the position of the nerve paths and are almost always on one side of the body or face only.

But I dont know why Doctors are not considering these facts :(

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Postby gainsbourg » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:21 am

Hi Sandeep and welcome to the forum - you will find no end of useful information and help here. Some doctors are taking the herpes/MS connection seriously. I don't have time right now to give details, but by coincidence there are a couple of talks here in London today and tomorrow on this very subject.

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Thanks!!!

Postby Sandeep » Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:02 am

Thanks for your prompt response Mr. Gains.
Request you to please send some details whenever you are free.

Thanks & Regards,
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Postby gainsbourg » Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:14 am

Sandeep,

You'd think by the way most contributors on this forum ignore the herpes/MS association (particularly Epstein Barr and Varicella Zoster forms) that the association was in doubt. There is absolutely no doubt - the question now is whether herpes is a caustive factor of MS or merely a part of the disease process.

I suggest you read this 2011 article. Here is the abstract:

Multiple sclerosis (MS) is an immune-mediated disorder; however, little is known about the triggering factors of the abnormal immune response. Different viruses from the herpes family have been mentioned as potential participants. Here, we review the evidences that support the association of varicella zoster virus (VZV) with MS. Epidemiological studies from geographical areas, where incidence of MS has increased in recent decades, pointed out a high frequency of varicella and zoster in the clinical antecedents of MS patients, and also laboratory investigations have found large quantities of DNA from VZV in leucocytes and cerebrospinal fluid of MS patients restricted to the ephemeral period of MS relapse, followed by disappearance of the virus during remission. The above observations and the peculiar features of VZV, mainly characterized by its neurotropism and long periods of latency followed by viral reactivation, support the idea on the participation of VZV in the etiology of MS. However, as with reports from studies with other viruses, particularly Epstein Barr virus, conflicting results on confirmatory studies about the presence of viral gene products in brain tissue indicate the need for further research on the potential participation of VZV in the etiology of MS.


The full article (well worth reading) is here:
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/msi/2011/214763

Then in 2009 came the staggering confirmation that only people who have been infected with the Epstein Barr Virus (EBV) ever get MS (actually the figure is 99% - but the missing one percent could easily be accounted for when you make allowances for the fact that MS is sometimes misdiagnosed):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19664371
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19359987


We also now know that those with MS always have herpes Varicella Virus (VZV) antibody NDA in their cerebro-spinal fluid, and that this NDA increases roughly 500 fold during MS attacks. Healthy people do not have this DNA in their spinal fluid:

<shortened url>


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Postby ssmme » Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:00 am

It was the double whammy for me. I contracted mononucleosis at 11 or 12 years old and upon recovery had an episode of shingles. Both happened during puberty and now I have MS. Maybe a link?
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Postby gainsbourg » Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:39 am

Hi Ssmme, yes very likely a link but obviously it can't simply be herpes alone that causes MS attacks because almost every human being has one or more forms of herpes - either active or "dormant". It's trendy these days to talk of congenital weakness in the vascular system causing MS, but I think the congenital weakness will turn out to be in a much more obvious place - the nerves themselves. This, coupled with the presence of herpes, and almost certainly other factors crucial factors, like stress, results in MS.

Once researchers fully explore the hypothesis that herpes sometimes stimulates innapropriate immune response - resulting in nerve tissue damage - I think they will be able to narrow down the area they need to search in order to identify any genes (or congenital disposition) that allow this to happen - and bring about MS. Up till now its been like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Incidentally I'm certain that another crucial factor will be "modern" stress - although it will be (a) the hardest to prove and (b) the most bitterly contested.

I've always thought it logical that MS is partly a disease where stressful thoughts from modern stress (or simply a huge, unnatural demand on the brain) - can eventually inflict damage on the very tissue from which the thoughts originate. I believe the white matter is overused in modern times. It's like a telephone switchboard that gradually goes into a kind of partial meltdown. For me, herpes, which lurks at the base of all cerebro-spinal nerve ganglia, erupts opportunistically following mental and physical stress.


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Postby CVfactor » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:36 pm

gainsbourg wrote:Once researchers fully explore the hypothesis that herpes sometimes stimulates innapropriate immune response - resulting in nerve tissue damage - I think they will be able to narrow down the area they need to search in order to identify any genes (or congenital disposition) that allow this to happen - and bring about MS. Up till now its been like looking for a needle in a haystack.


This is not new at all and researchers (not medical doctors) have already realized that viruses can cause an autoimmune response. It's called Molecular Mimicry.

Its described here halfway down the page:

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopic-15479-15.html
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Postby gainsbourg » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:14 am

CV factor - I'm glad you brought up molecular mimicry. Salvetti-Giovannoni mention it in one of the meta-analyses I placed a link to above:

Serological evidence of previous exposure to EBV in children with MS supports a role for EBV infection early in MS pathogenesis, as already indicated by prospective studies in adults. Higher antibody titers and T-cell responses to EBV in patients compared to healthy EBV carriers indicate possible continuous viral reactivation, whereas there is some evidence that EBV could break immune tolerance to myelin antigens through molecular mimicry


I think herpes misleads the immune system in some way but it may not neccessarily turn out to be molecular mimicry (where there is a disruption of the body's normal ability to distinguish between 'self' and 'foreign') - after all the body sometimes has an inappropriate immune respose to the mere presence of substances like pollen. Okay that's an allergic response - but it is still an example of how the immune system can cause pointless physical damage simply due to the presence of something "foreign" - and herpes is definitely foreign. (Talking of allergies, I've often thought that Elaine DeLack may be right in her belief that there may be a link between the regulation of histamine and MS). 600 US doctors now prescibe her drug Prokarin - maybe it has an effect on herpes?

We have a common denominator between herpes and MS to consider - stress. Researchers have absolutely no inkling why stress brings on herpes - or why stress brings on MS attacks. The day they discover the link is the day I believe they will discover the cause of MS. I know I'm always on about stress - but I'm simply trying to think laterally. Stress is all about nerves Stress massively affects the demand on nerves.

a) herpes lives at the base of nerves.
b) myelin covers nerves

In chronic herpes sufferers, the virus periodically interacts with the body - visibly causing painful skin blisters. Why should it not interact with the body in a different way causing the damage to myelin that results in MS?

There are other de-myelinating diseases like CIDP (the peripheral nervous system equivalent of MS). This is known to be sometimes triggered (in the form of Guillain Barr Syndrome) by an attack of herpes.



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Postby gainsbourg » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:51 am

I don't usually double post but felt I had to on this occasion. As mentioned in my last post CIDP is also a demyelinating disease - the peripheral nervous system equivalent of MS.

Just Googled CIDP/herpes and discovered (to my amazement) that 100% of CIDP sufferers carry EBV - just as those with MS do - what a "coincidence!" Plus:

cellular EBV copy numbers were 3-fold increased in patients with CIDP

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19939466

CIDP is a chronic disease, where myelin on the other side of the Blood Brain Barrier is inflammed and destroyed - just like in MS. Sometimes CIDP sufferers also get CNS nerve damage (by the way, venous insufficiency has no known link with CIDP).



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Postby CVfactor » Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:13 pm

gainsbourg,

I happen to agree that MS is most likely initiated by viral influences and I think that molecular mimicry may be a key to this. Also, it is totally possible in my view that stress could cause these dormant viruses to revive which would explain relapsing-remitting courses of autoimmune diseases.

But as you have already said, how does this relate to other conditions such as alergies and other autoimmune diseases like rheumtoid arthritis?

Well I believe (as well as a lot of researchers) that the question is not why do some people have immune systems that attack its own tissues. The better question is why do some people have immune systems that do not prevent an autoimmune attack.

All people have self reactive immune cells that escape from the thymus into the body. But it looks like that the cells that protect the body from an autoimmune attack (regulatory T cells) are defective in people with these diseases (as well as alergies).
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Postby sou » Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:54 am

gainsbourg wrote:Sometimes CIDP sufferers also get CNS nerve damage (by the way, venous insufficiency has no known link with CIDP).


Venous insufficiency could create an oxidative environment that could lead to CNS damage, but definitely, CNS damage can happen for a myriad of reasons except venous insufficiency.

Let me rephrase a little:

CVfactor wrote:If MS were autoimmune, it could most likely be initiated by viral influences and I think that molecular mimicry may be a key to this.


This is exactly my opinion.
Shortest joke: "We may not be able to cure MS but we can manage its symptoms."
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