fear for my daughter

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fear for my daughter

Postby candigrl63 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:56 am

hello,i am new here. my daughter who is 22, has had hand tremors in both hands for about 8 years now. these tremors do not come and go. this last year she has developed arm tremors now when she tries to lift something. she also has leg tremors now when she dances or exercises. she has no trouble walking , running, climbing or decending stairs or hills. she has also had depression since she was 14. does this sound like ms? i will be devastated. she has had such a hard life. if it is ms, because her hand tremors have never come and gone, does this been she has the bad type of ms that progresses quickly? she has no eye troubles. also, when she is on the stair stepper, the bottom of her feet go numb. her hands occasionaly get cold and nails turn a little blue. please tell me what you think. she wont go to a doc. she says if it is ms, she will take her life. she will. she has never gotten her depression treated. she wont. oh one more thing, i dont know if this matters but she has mild scoliosis (lumbar). 10 degrees.
thank you
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Re: fear for my daughter

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:29 am

welcome to TIMS - sorry to hear about your girl :(

your list of symptoms is red flagging magnesium for me. serum magnesium levels are low in ms patients, but luckily it's a pretty easy fix.

does your daughter suffer from menstrual cramping? if so, that's one clinical sign of problems with magnesium status. here are a few more:

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/magnesium
"Early signs of magnesium deficiency include loss of appetite, nausea, vomiting, fatigue, and weakness. As magnesium deficiency worsens, numbness, tingling, muscle contractions and cramps, seizures (sudden changes in behaviors caused by excessive electrical activity in the brain), personality changes, abnormal heart rhythms, and coronary spasms can occur [1,3-4]."

i suspect there could even be a link to magnesium status and her lumbar scoliosis. i have not found a specific study on this, but i'm not the first with the hypothesis:

http://www.ctds.info/magnesium.html#rachitic
"Rachitic skeletal features are features that are associated with rickets or ricket-like conditions. ... Mg is a needed co-factor for vitamin D utilization, meaning that a lack of Mg can cause vitamin D to be unavailable to the body. The result is that a Mg deficit could, in turn, cause vitamin D deficiency symptoms. Magnesium supplementation is sometimes needed to treat rickets that have not been responsive to vitamin D or calcium treatment.
A lack of Mg would provide a logical explanation of why mitral valve prolapse, pectus excavatum, scoliosis and other rachitic skeletal features commonly appear together."

some potential routes to magnesium deficiency:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1500911/
Diet [edit: part of the problem is City water which has to have magnesium removed when present in high enough amounts to clog the works]. ... The average American diet fifty years ago contained almost twice as much magnesium as does our present diet.
Drink. Alcohol alters magnesium balance in several ways: there is decreased magnesium in the diet of most alcoholics; alcohol impairs absorption of magnesium from the gastrointestinal track; and finally, and most importantly, alcohol, even in moderation, causes an increase in renal magnesium loss.
Diarrhea. By this I mean gastrointestinal problems in general, including inflammatory bowel disease, laxative abuse, vomiting, nasogastric suction, short bowel syndromes and malabsorption.
Diuretics. This includes the use of diuretics, both osmotic and pharmacologic, as well as kidney disease.
Drugs. The fifth D is drugs. Multiple medications have been shown to increase renal magnesium loss including albuterol and other beta agonists, aminoglycoside antibiotics, carbenicillin, ticarcillin, digitalis, amphotericin B, pentamadine, cisplatin and cyclosporine.
Disease. Foremost among these is diabetes, but magnesium deficiency is also seen in hyperthyroidism, hyperaldosteronism, and hypercalcemia of any cause.
Diaphoresis. Sweat contains magnesium and excess loss through this mechanism is the reason runners cramp up.”

would your daughter go to the doc just to get a magnesium test done? if so, serum level should be 0.90mmol/L at a minimum (the normal range is 0.70-1.10 so you can't let them just tell you it's 'normal' because the entire lower half of the 'normal' range is sub-optimal.

if a test is not in the cards, you might just want to recommend magnesium-rich foods, plus a magnesium glycinate supplement (the supplemental form is very important for absorption) and perhaps epsom salts baths too (follow package instructions - more is not necessarily better)

and now for some science. this study's about kids but since you mentioned 8 years back, i figure it's applicable research:
AN ASSOCIATION BETWEEN SERUM-MAGNESIUM AND TREMOR AND CONVULSIONS IN INFANTS AND CHILDREN
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lance ... 40-6736(68)92890-0/abstract
Abstract
Thirteen cases of convulsions or tremors in children with hypomagnesæmia but no associated hypocalcæmia are reported. On recovery, either spontaneously or after administration of magnesium, serum-magnesium returned to normal levels.

and,

Physiopathology of symptomatic and latent forms of central nervous hyperexcitability due to magnesium deficiency: a current general scheme
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11153899.
Symptomatic forms of central nervous hyperexcitability (NHE) due to magnesium deficiency results from the sum of direct cellular effects and of local and systemic mediated effects inducing depolarization and NHE.

and most importantly:

Rapid recovery from major depression using magnesium treatment
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 7706001034
Major depression is a mood disorder characterized by a sense of inadequacy, despondency, decreased activity, pessimism, anhedonia and sadness where these symptoms severely disrupt and adversely affect the person’s life, sometimes to such an extent that suicide is attempted or results. Antidepressant drugs are not always effective and some have been accused of causing an increased number of suicides particularly in young people. Magnesium deficiency is well known to produce neuropathologies. Only 16% of the magnesium found in whole wheat remains in refined flour, and magnesium has been removed from most drinking water supplies, setting a stage for human magnesium deficiency. Magnesium ions regulate calcium ion flow in neuronal calcium channels, helping to regulate neuronal nitric oxide production. In magnesium deficiency, neuronal requirements for magnesium may not be met, causing neuronal damage which could manifest as depression. Magnesium treatment is hypothesized to be effective in treating major depression resulting from intraneuronal magnesium deficits. These magnesium ion neuronal deficits may be induced by stress hormones, excessive dietary calcium as well as dietary deficiencies of magnesium. Case histories are presented showing rapid recovery (less than 7 days) from major depression using 125–300 mg of magnesium (as glycinate and taurinate) with each meal and at bedtime. Magnesium was found usually effective for treatment of depression in general use. Related and accompanying mental illnesses in these case histories including traumatic brain injury, headache, suicidal ideation, anxiety, irritability, insomnia, postpartum depression, cocaine, alcohol and tobacco abuse, hypersensitivity to calcium, short-term memory loss and IQ loss were also benefited. Dietary deficiencies of magnesium, coupled with excess calcium and stress may cause many cases of other related symptoms including agitation, anxiety, irritability, confusion, asthenia, sleeplessness, headache, delirium, hallucinations and hyperexcitability, with each of these having been previously documented. The possibility that magnesium deficiency is the cause of most major depression and related mental health problems including IQ loss and addiction is enormously important to public health and is recommended for immediate further study. Fortifying refined grain and drinking water with biologically available magnesium to pre-twentieth century levels is recommended.

FYI healthy magnesium-rich foods:
http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=75

hope that helps. if you have any questions, fire away :)
READ ME key info on nutrient targets - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: fear for my daughter

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:35 am

READ ME key info on nutrient targets - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: fear for my daughter

Postby fee002 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:27 pm

Candygirl

She may have a problem with her cervical spine (neck) ask Uprightdoc on here he can give you some advice and praps point you in the right direction to see a Chiropractor.

I think the depression is a separate issue.
Last edited by fee002 on Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Lyon » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:43 pm

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Last edited by Lyon on Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: fear for my daughter

Postby euphoniaa » Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:39 pm

Lyon wrote:Is there any way that YOU can talk to your Dr about your daughter since she won't go? If you explain the situation an area Doctor is in a much better position to assess and make recommendations than anyone here at an internet discussion board.

Nothing you mentioned is specific to MS or even specific to neurological problems and it's a shame to let (likely) unwarranted fears keep her from seeking a correct diagnosis and possibly even relief of symptoms.


Hi candigirl, It sounds like your daughter (and you!) are going through some rough times and I really feel for you both. I do have to agree with the suggestions that Lyon gave you above. You really should seek professional medical advice, even if your daughter refuses to go herself at this time. At the least you could talk to a counselor (there are even many free services) about how best to lead your daughter into a doctor's care.

MS is completely unique to each of us and has no specific test like other illnesses, so we here at TIMS can only give you a wild guess about what we might suspect. She needs in- person evaluation and testing. It's quite possible that she has something much more easily treatable, although even MS is not the "end of the world." I've had it for at least 38 years and I still work full-time and enjoy life.

I wish you the very best and please keep us posted how you're doing!
Dx'd with MS & HNPP (hereditary peripheral neuropathy) 7/03 but must have had MS for 30 yrs before that. I've never taken meds for MS or MS symptoms except 1 yr experiment on LDN. (I found diet, exercise, sleep, humor, music help me the most.)
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Re: fear for my daughter

Postby scorpions » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:30 pm

Honestly what you are describing does not sound like MS to me but as euphoniaa stated MS is quite different for each person. Two things for you and her to keep in mind are that if it is MS it is NOT a death sentence(most people live a near normal lifespan) and it is quite possible that in the near future that researchers will discover a treatment to, if not cure MS, at least stop it in its tracks. Good luck!
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Re: fear for my daughter

Postby Cece » Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:13 pm

The red flag to me is the depression and thinking that suicide would be the right response to a diagnosis. Maybe a doctor could prescribe antidepressants or she could see a therapist if that is a possibility. There is no shame in going for help.
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Re: fear for my daughter

Postby candigrl63 » Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:47 pm

thank you all for all the info and great ideas. i have asked her to start taking magnesium to start. she agree to go to a doc to see if her b 12 is low. i still cant get her to counseling or talk to a doc about getting tested for ms if needed. i will keep working on it. her depression is severe so i guess i need to work on that the most.
thank you
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Re: fear for my daughter

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:12 am

you're welcome!

your daughter -she's low in b12?? b12 is a major differential diagnosis for ms. it can cause thoracic and cervical spinal cord lesions. i have permanent cord damage from my own b12 deficiency history. fyi b12 is also required (along with other b-complex vitamins) for proper utilization of magnesium.

some notes on magnesium supplements:

for magnesium, the form is very important. please choose magnesium glycinate, for absorption, and minimized side effects.

for b-complex, look for one that has 'methylcobalamin' for b12 - i've only seen two brands and one was for the first time yesterday so i forget, but AOR is one brand that uses the methyl form of b12 in its b-complex supplement.

i hope, if she goes to the doc for a b12 test, that she will also test serum magnesium! but if not, i'll be back on later to send you some magnesium-rich food links. ttfn!
READ ME key info on nutrient targets - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: fear for my daughter

Postby hargarah » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:46 am

When she stands upright and bends her neck down, does she feel electricity in her back?

That was the red flag for me - Lhermitte's sign - that gave up the jig for me!
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