Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Postby CureOrBust » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:31 am

PointsNorth wrote:I've found that when I've missed a meal I get symptom improvement. I would like to try the feed/fast cycle. Maybe fast on Monday-Wed-Fri and feed the rest of the week?
When I was at my worst (first diagnosed and on Rebif), I noticed that after eating lunch, I would be a little worse off. But, that may not be directly because of insulin.

As for your plans to fast, three days a week is pretty severe. From the Doco earlier linked, Mark Matteson was suggesting a 5:2 pattern; ie 2 days of fast (<600cal), and 5 days of feast a week. I did a single day of fast on Saturday, and it made Sunday a struggle, not to mention how difficult Saturday was in regards to hunger. However, I took it to the extreme, in more ways than one. I ate 0 calories, and only drank filtered water when I was hungry, which was often. In addition to 0 calories, I also exercised in the morning for 20min on a cross trainer (on high resistance considering), which would of expended a lot if not all the sugars from my blood.

Sunday was tough, maybe today was a little better than Friday, or not. Tomorrow, if I get a chance, I will buy some instant soup in a cup like he used in the doco, and try a 600 cal or less day. In the doco, the docs got him to try it for a few weeks.
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Postby CaveMan » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:04 am

I saw that doco a while back, there are multiple ways of doing calorie restriction/Fasting.
I adopted a 20/4 protocol a while back, that is a fasting period of 20 hours (including sleep) and a 4 hour eating window in the evening.
It is important to include a large variety of foods in this eating window as this is the one and only meal time/day.
The other thing to consider is allowing your body plenty of time to adapt, so gradually making breakfast later and later, till it becomes lunch, then making lunch later and later till it becomes dinner.
There are many potential benefits which include improved glucose control which IMO is at the core of many chronic diseases, but the warning is to go slow, real slow, don't get ahead of yourself, many people go too fast feel great for a while then start going downhill, this is because their bodies have not fully adapted and the body has enacted a series of metabolic adjustments to deal with the food restriction and one of those may be downregulating thyroid function.
You should go in with the idea of nudgeing your body in the right direction, not enforcing a strict regimen, your body is in charge and if you push too hard it will counter move, like a true Chess master, and sabotage your process, so keep it slow and comfortable.
I would suggest a minimum of three months, preferably closer to 12 months of eating better and drifting slowly to a 20/4 IF protocol.

Be wary of possible thyroid downregulation, so a metabolic slowdown ("starvation response"), this happens when individuals have not allowed enough time for their body to switch from sugar burning to fat burning as a primary fuel source.
It's basically going into the early stages of Ketosis, for a full ketogenic diet healthy individuals can switch over in 2-3 weeks generally, with a small dose of "low carb flu", but those with significant metabolic dysfunction may take 12 months or more, if the body is not allowed adequate time for healing and adjustment then you may find yourself in a worse place than you started at.

Insulin control of blood glucose is very crude and poor as that was never it's primary role to control maximum glucose levels, whereas we have multiple systems and hormones for managing low blood glucose very precisely, this suggests we were never really designed to consume a high carbohydrate diet daily in every meal.
I think when we are properly tuned our bodies are quite capable of managing seasonal and opportunistic carb binges, but these should be the exception rather than the norm.

Once Insulin & Glucose are under control and the inflamatory threats like Omega 6 PUFA's are removed then Leptin levels also begin to recede, Leptin is likely the first hormone dysregulated, many years before Insulin or high blood glucose appears.
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Postby Leonard » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:03 am

CaveMan wrote:Insulin control of blood glucose is very crude and poor as that was never it's primary role to control maximum glucose levels, whereas we have multiple systems and hormones for managing low blood glucose very precisely, this suggests we were never really designed to consume a high carbohydrate diet daily in every meal.
I think when we are properly tuned our bodies are quite capable of managing seasonal and opportunistic carb binges, but these should be the exception rather than the norm.

Once Insulin & Glucose are under control and the inflamatory threats like Omega 6 PUFA's are removed then Leptin levels also begin to recede, Leptin is likely the first hormone dysregulated, many years before Insulin or high blood glucose appears.


@Caveman, we think alike. MS stands for Metabolic Syndrome, a dysregulated metabolism; the sclerosis in our brains are just symptoms on the fringes... our consciousness is located between our ears , but our biological center is the gut. the gut microbiota makes who we are, biologically...

insulin sensitivity is key. and perhaps, with Caveman, the leptin regulation. this is determined by the gut microbiota. there are only a few "bloodgroups"/dominant enterotypes. hunger, fasting etc will influence the microbiota; extreme low calory diet for 6 weeks can even heal diabetes. and as we know, feces transplantation is a real option, and is becoming ever more real for me..

I invite all to look at this presentation: http://www.cvgk.nl/legacy/bestanden/cvc ... rp-def.pdf
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Postby Anonymoose » Wed May 01, 2013 5:24 pm

Hi Lyndacarol,

I was wondering if you could post a summary of things you have tried to do to lower your insulin resistance. What has helped? What hasn't helped? Do you have test results to document progress or lack thereof or are you just working from a symptom perspective (I certainly do :) )? Does your resistance decrease when you somehow partially address immune factors (this might be accomplished by raising vitamin d levels)?

Are you going to try the fasting thing again? That would be interesting to observe but not pleasant for you (unless you experience significant improvements).

It seems like proving a causal relationship between insulin resistance and MS can only be done by getting the resistance under control and seeing what happens to MS. It's mind-boggling that you've tried so many things that should help with insulin resistance, yet, as far as I know, you've still not been able to correct it. Maybe it's a downstream component of the MS cascade and you need to go upstream to have an impact??

Just trying to wrap my head around this concept in the context of your experience. I agree that it likely contributes to the MS picture in some people but I wonder if it is truly the cause of (some) MS. In search of the ever-elusive answers...
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Postby CaveMan » Wed May 01, 2013 5:58 pm

This paper may be worth a read, not specifically MS, but does talk about ancestral diets and the impacts of changes in microbiota composition with modern diets.
The primary distinction being the consumption of grains, flour, processed sugars being Acellular carbohydrates where as traditional diets that were high in carbohydrate consumed cellular carbohydrates like fruit, nuts & starchy tubers.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3402009/
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Postby Anonymoose » Wed May 01, 2013 6:32 pm

Thanks caveman. How does that jive with reversal of type 2 diabetes via a vegan/modern diet, presumedly rich in nuts, grains, and legumes? Even if it is the result of lower caloric and fat intake, it still includes the "guilty" foods outlined in the study you referenced. This study doesn't document reversal, I recall hearing a lot about it in recent years but haven't time to find a documenting at the moment. It does speak to some insulin related issues though.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19339401/
So much conflicting info!
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Postby CaveMan » Wed May 01, 2013 11:05 pm

Well the first point is that just about any diet will be better than that prescribed by CW, in this case the Diabetes association. So the way I see this study is a bit like the studies that show whole grains are healthy, if you take time to look at those studies they are only comparing whether whole grains are healthier than refined grains, so the conclusion really is whole grains are healthier than refined grains.
So are Grains healthier than No grains, well we don't know because not enough large controlled studies have been done to determine this.
Likewise a Vegan diet is certainly healthier than the diabetes assoc. diet, is it the healthiest diet possible, in my mind not.
When I started looking at diets I did look at the vegan style and vegetarian cancer style diets as well and determined they were on the fringe of nutrition, yes they can be done, but they are borderline, particularly the Vegan aspect which requires supplimentation of Vitamin B12 and the Omega 3 DHA in particular, any diet which requires supplimentation in my mind is not complete, the other issue with the Vegan diet is it is based on a non nutritional ideology, so the diet is secondary to the primary goal of not harming animals, in reality this is not far different to the USDA food pyramids goal of selling annual agricultural production and not to achieve optimum nutrition.
By the way always worth a look at the study authors background, the study title does not always reveal the underlying drivers, whether intentional or not the authors personal opinions are often reflected in the interpretation of the results. Full text link below:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677007/
And the author is:Neal D Barnard
Acknowledgments.
NDB is president of the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine and the Cancer Project, organizations that promote the use of low-fat, plant-based diets, and writes books and gives lectures about therapeutic diets, including vegan diets. He is the author of Dr. Neal Barnard's Program for Reversing Diabetes and receives royalties from its sales. None of the other authors had any personal or financial conflict of interest.
So there is already an inherent study bias, not saying the data is manipulated, but interpretations and language may be skewed.

As for my going Paleo it was looking at all the foods we eat that are most damaging potentially and reducing or eliminating from my diet, they primarily consist of Grains, Soy, Omega 6 veg oils, Dairy (except yoghurt) and reducing intake of other legumes.
The biggest bridge for most people to cross is the saturated fat issue because it has been so maligned over the last 50 years.
The fact is the "Lipid Hypothesis" which say's basically "saturated fat intake raises cholesterol and causes heart disease" and has formed the basis of our dietary recommendations, is wrong.
It was never more than a hypothesis, in those 50 years there have been thousands of studies done to "answer the question once and for all" and not one has proven the hypothesis, the saddest part is the data that has been collected and now being mined for other information and it is slowly coming to light that those with higher saturated fat intake and higher cholesterol actually had the lowest "All Cause Mortality", so the hypothesis was not just wrong, it was more or less completely opposite.
Once you get over the fear of eating animal fats & red meat, the rest is smooth sailing.
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Postby CureOrBust » Sun May 05, 2013 3:23 am

I never thought of this before, but it seems so obvious now. :oops:

A few months back, I saw a documentary (on exercise I think) that had a section where the doctors tested the presenters insulin resistance by making him drink a sugary liquid, and then measuring his blood glucose levels every X minutes, and then plotting his results against a "standard curve". They found he was borderline.

Anyway, my father is also borderline in his old age, and has a self monitor / measuring sugar level device. So, today I played with it :wink:

Directly after lunch (which included white rice and a sugary drink, apple juice), about 10-15 minutes I took a reading. It measured 8.0mmol/L (or 144mg/dL in metric). After two hours (post prandial), I pricked my finger again, and checked the level, it came up as 5.0mmol/L (or 90mg/dL in metric). From what I can gather from this website (http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes_care ... anges.html), it would seem OK to me.
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Postby lyndacarol » Sun May 05, 2013 11:24 am

It is a good idea to be aware of one's glucose level, especially if your father has this problem, CureOrBust. I think it was very smart of you to borrow your dad's monitor and conduct your own glucose test!

Now, you know what I'm going to say, don't you? The glucose test alone cannot indicate insulin resistance; as always, I encourage you to get a proper insulin test, too. I am convinced that people with MS diagnosis and symptoms will have a "fasting blood insulin test" result higher than 5 UU/ML (the optimal level is 3 UU/ML or lower).
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Postby CaveMan » Sun May 05, 2013 3:27 pm

Just to add to that, three seperate factors to test
Fasting Insulin
Fasting Glucose
Glucose Tolerence/Insulin Sensitivity

and I'd add one more
Fasting Leptin (this one is pay for, about $35), Leptin is most likely the first one to dysfunction.
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Postby CureOrBust » Mon May 06, 2013 5:40 am

lyndacarol wrote:.. especially if your father has this problem ...
My father was just under borderline, so they got him to monitor and watch his diet, for prevention purposes. My father is also a lot older, err... fatter... and has not looked after his health while younger. He previously had a cholesterol issue (and a double bypass) but now his blood test comes out with cholesterol readings below the "healthy range" provided by the lab; without drugs. My mother has him on a tight leash :twisted:

Interestingly, for the diabetes they actually have him taking a pill twice a day. I forgot to ask what it was :confused:
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Postby lyndacarol » Mon May 06, 2013 5:35 pm

CureOrBust wrote:...My mother has him on a tight leash :twisted:

Interestingly, for the diabetes they actually have him taking a pill twice a day. I forgot to ask what it was :confused:

I like your mother already.

The diabetes drug-I'll bet it is Metformin (brand name in the US is Glucophage).
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Postby CureOrBust » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:09 pm

Stumbled on the following while looking into something totally unrelated, and was a little surprised I hadn't heard of it before with all the media going loopy about sugar and the GI of foods.
Guar gum can slow down glucose absorption and reduce the incidence of postprandial (after eating) hypotension.

http://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/health/re ... -pressure/

The actual link has nothing to do with Insulin or MS or provide any further info, I just included it for a reference, so don't waste your time to read it. 8)


---=== edit ===---
OK, I did a quick look in google to see if it is a well known fact, and clicked on one of the links.
Because the rate of absorption of glucose is decreased, this feature is helpful in diabetics. However, your insulin or diabetic medication may need to be adjusted if using guar gum. It may help to lower your need for insulin and for diabetic medications.

http://www.nutridesk.com.au/guar-gum.phtml
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Postby lyndacarol » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:38 pm

CureOrBust wrote:Stumbled on the following while looking into something totally unrelated, and was a little surprised I hadn't heard of it before with all the media going loopy about sugar and the GI of foods.
Guar gum can slow down glucose absorption and reduce the incidence of postprandial (after eating) hypotension.

http://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/health/re ... -pressure/

The actual link has nothing to do with Insulin or MS or provide any further info, I just included it for a reference, so don't waste your time to read it. 8)


---=== edit ===---
OK, I did a quick look in google to see if it is a well known fact, and clicked on one of the links.
Because the rate of absorption of glucose is decreased, this feature is helpful in diabetics. However, your insulin or diabetic medication may need to be adjusted if using guar gum. It may help to lower your need for insulin and for diabetic medications.

http://www.nutridesk.com.au/guar-gum.phtml

Thank you for this information, CureOrBust. I have not heard of this before either.

Since I began to eat strictly gluten-free about three weeks ago, I have been reading lots of GF cookbooks and GF recipes. Guar gum and/or xanthan gum are common ingredients in gluten-free recipes. I have been reluctant to choose recipes with these ingredients, since I have never used them before and didn't understand their purpose. With this new information, I won't hesitate anymore. As you know, my current thinking is that gluten/wheat generates zonulin, which opens the tight junctions of the intestinal lining, and this allows too much insulin to pass into the bloodstream (Correction, thanks to CaveMan: the digestive enzymes secreted by the pancreas enter the small intestine; the pancreatic hormones, of which insulin is one, enter the mesenteric blood vessels, specifically the portal vein. I think wheat gluten simply raises blood glucose and its insulin response.) . I don't want any surge of glucose absorption to trigger more insulin secretion – so if guar gum slows glucose absorption, it's "a good thing," as Martha Stewart says.
Last edited by lyndacarol on Wed May 07, 2014 9:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Postby CaveMan » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:45 am

Not quite sure if you've got it all right or maybe just the way you have written it.

Zonulin as I wrote elswhere is a human protein and part of normal endothelial function, it's just with some conditions like coeliac that there is an association with higher levels of Zonulin, this does not suggest it causes the condition.
"Corrolation does not show Causation" that is the golden rule for all studies that many seem to have forgotten, most studies only show an association or corrolation and report it as if it was causation in their conclusion, read carefully and consider what is really being said.
Here's a link on the discovery of zonulin:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 090409.php

So Wheat/Gluten does not generate Zonulin, but may be associated with a higher level of Zonulin, this may be a problem or may be an attempt to adress another unidentified problem, I have not seen enough data to confirm if the situations are always the same with non coeliac patients as well.

Insulin does not enter the bloodstream from the gut it is released by the pancreases beta cells through the endochrine system in response to the bodies metabolic signals, of which dietary glucose is one, but there are others which are not fully understood yet, hence diabetes still remains an elusive condition.

The limiting of glucose absorption by Guar gum (poly saccharide) is much the same as the result from eating vegetables and increasing dietary fibre, (not cereal brans, they are worthless and potentially dangerous), but merely eating more vegetables and fruit rather than processed carbohydrates & sugars.

Consider doing some research on resistant starches, they are very much like solouble fibre and another thing is the use of sourdough process if you are baking GF breads, the Lactobacillus that is a mainstay of the process produces a much healthier product than yeast or baking soda based breads etc.
I don't eat grains or bread, but that's me.
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.
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