Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

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Re: Musings on MS as I sat in the sunshine

Postby Nick » Sun May 14, 2006 4:33 pm

lyndacarol wrote:
Ignorance gives me license to imagine all kinds of possibilities. We've all heard that sunshine is good for us with MS. Why? Some scientists tie this with the general (and frequently cited!) observation of lower prevalence of MS with closer proximity to the equator (but with exceptions that are conveniently ignored). Sunshine is known to be absorbed by the skin, where eventually in the body it becomes Vitamin D. The assumption has been that it is Vitamin D that accounts for less MS. (Like many, I take Vitamin D supplements.) But sunshine has many components; could the mechanism be something else? Maybe the focus on D is incorrect. Is there evidence that Vitamin D is definitely the key ingredient?

I don't know much about sunshine, but I know it is a source of ultraviolet A and B (cause of sunburn) rays. I also know that ultraviolet rays are used to kill germs; they are even used in some water purification. If viruses or bacteria are involved in MS, maybe UVA or UVB rays affect them and thus the disease? Is THIS the mechanism at work? Maybe a dose of ultraviolet would be more useful than Vitamin D.


Possibly but evidence such as this study indicate it is vitamin D as the imunosuppressive element associated with sunshine.

I feel ignorance is no excuse for purposefully dismissing information so to promote a "pet theory" Lynda. I've posted this information before on the specific influences vitamin D has on the well identified elements the immune system employs in the disease of MS. Here it is again......

This is an excerpt from Vitamin D Supplementation in the Fight Against Multiple Sclerosis

1) Suppresses antibody production by B cells and the proliferation of T cells in the thymus.
2) Upregulates cytokines TGF-beta and IL-4. These proteins, which are produced by immune cells, act as suppressants of inflammatory T cells.
3) Inhibits production of pro-inflammatory cytokines such as IL-1, IL-2, TNF
and IFN gamma which also reduces inflamammatory reactions.
4) Interferes with T helper function and inhibits the passive transfer of cellular immunity by Th in vivo
5) Inhibits the production of NO (nitric oxide) by immune cells. NO has been identified as one of the most destructive products of the immune system and is an important factor in demyelination.
6) Inhibits the proliferation of activated and memory T cells. Such cells are
the main mediators of the inflammatory autoimmune reactions of MS.
7) Exerts immunomodulating effects in the CNS by inducing a profound
downregulation of antigen expression by both infiltrating and resident antigen-presenting
cells (e.g. macrophages).
8 ) Inhibits the actions of antigen presenting dendritic cells.

In summary, vitamin D hormone has numerous effects on the immune system and acts within the CNS. All of these effects have the combined result of significantly reducing inflammatory autoimmune reactions from occurring and they readily explain the impressive correlation between MS prevalence and vitamin D supply and why vitamin D hormone is so effective in suppressing a variety of animal autoimmune diseases including EAE (animal MS)


lyndacarol wrote:I've read (but can't recall the source--so my husband says I can't use this--see how well I listen?) that sunshine removes insulin from the body. (See? It all comes back to insulin for me!) Could this explain the situation with MS and the equator? Perhaps something in sunshine is removing excess insulin for those nearer to the equator.


If you could provide me with with a reputable source of this I would appreciate it. try Pubmed or Google for your search.

Cheers
Nick
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Re: Musings on MS as I sat in the sunshine

Postby Nick » Sun May 14, 2006 4:34 pm

lyndacarol wrote:
Ignorance gives me license to imagine all kinds of possibilities. We've all heard that sunshine is good for us with MS. Why? Some scientists tie this with the general (and frequently cited!) observation of lower prevalence of MS with closer proximity to the equator (but with exceptions that are conveniently ignored). Sunshine is known to be absorbed by the skin, where eventually in the body it becomes Vitamin D. The assumption has been that it is Vitamin D that accounts for less MS. (Like many, I take Vitamin D supplements.) But sunshine has many components; could the mechanism be something else? Maybe the focus on D is incorrect. Is there evidence that Vitamin D is definitely the key ingredient?

I don't know much about sunshine, but I know it is a source of ultraviolet A and B (cause of sunburn) rays. I also know that ultraviolet rays are used to kill germs; they are even used in some water purification. If viruses or bacteria are involved in MS, maybe UVA or UVB rays affect them and thus the disease? Is THIS the mechanism at work? Maybe a dose of ultraviolet would be more useful than Vitamin D.


Possibly but evidence such as this study indicate it is vitamin D as the imunosuppressive element associated with sunshine.

I feel ignorance is no excuse for purposefully dismissing information so to promote a "pet theory" Lynda. I've posted this information before on the specific influences vitamin D has on the well identified elements the immune system employs in the disease of MS. Here it is again......

This is an excerpt from Vitamin D Supplementation in the Fight Against Multiple Sclerosis

1) Suppresses antibody production by B cells and the proliferation of T cells in the thymus.
2) Upregulates cytokines TGF-beta and IL-4. These proteins, which are produced by immune cells, act as suppressants of inflammatory T cells.
3) Inhibits production of pro-inflammatory cytokines such as IL-1, IL-2, TNF
and IFN gamma which also reduces inflamammatory reactions.
4) Interferes with T helper function and inhibits the passive transfer of cellular immunity by Th in vivo
5) Inhibits the production of NO (nitric oxide) by immune cells. NO has been identified as one of the most destructive products of the immune system and is an important factor in demyelination.
6) Inhibits the proliferation of activated and memory T cells. Such cells are
the main mediators of the inflammatory autoimmune reactions of MS.
7) Exerts immunomodulating effects in the CNS by inducing a profound
downregulation of antigen expression by both infiltrating and resident antigen-presenting
cells (e.g. macrophages).
8 ) Inhibits the actions of antigen presenting dendritic cells.

In summary, vitamin D hormone has numerous effects on the immune system and acts within the CNS. All of these effects have the combined result of significantly reducing inflammatory autoimmune reactions from occurring and they readily explain the impressive correlation between MS prevalence and vitamin D supply and why vitamin D hormone is so effective in suppressing a variety of animal autoimmune diseases including EAE (animal MS)


lyndacarol wrote:I've read (but can't recall the source--so my husband says I can't use this--see how well I listen?) that sunshine removes insulin from the body. (See? It all comes back to insulin for me!) Could this explain the situation with MS and the equator? Perhaps something in sunshine is removing excess insulin for those nearer to the equator.


If you could provide me with with a reputable source of this I would appreciate it. Try Pubmed or Google for your searches.

Cheers
Nick
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links to vit d info

Postby jimmylegs » Sun May 14, 2006 6:12 pm

hi there, haven't spent a lot of time on insulin yet, but i do know that vitamin d is linked closely with the endocrine and immune systems. pancreas? could very well be. so maybe adequate vitamin d from sunshine sorts out screwy insulin production, and a whole bunch of other screwy stuff. i also think that everything is so interconnected it would be bloody hard to say who's "right" or "wrong" about this immune/endocrine/autoimmune stuff. but personally i think vitamin d is the fountain of health.

oo, here's something fun:

Diabetes Metab. 2005 Sep;31(4 Pt 1):318-25. Related Articles, Links


Vitamin D endocrine system and the genetic susceptibility to diabetes, obesity and vascular disease. A review of evidence.

Reis AF, Hauache OM, Velho G.

Inserm Unite 695, Faculte de Medecine Xavier Bichat, 16, rue Henri Huchard, 75018 Paris, France.

The Vitamin D endocrine system regulates multiple aspects of calcium metabolism and cellular differentiation and replication in the immune system, endocrine pancreas, liver, skeletal muscles and adipocytes. It plays an important role in glucose homeostasis, notably, in the mechanism of insulin release. Actions of vitamin D are mediated by the binding of 1, 25-(OH)2D3 to a specific cytosolic/nuclear vitamin D receptor (VDR), a member of the steroid/thyroid hormone receptor superfamily. Several frequent polymorphisms are found in the VDR gene and were reported to be associated with a variety of physiological and pathological phenotypes in many populations. In this paper, we will review the evidences suggesting associations of allelic variations in the VDR gene and phenotypes related to body weight, glucose homeostasis, diabetes and its vascular complications.

here is a link to a collection of abstracts on vitamin d studies, which i posted elsewhere:

http://www.thisisms.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2246
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Postby Nick » Mon May 15, 2006 11:47 am

Hey Jimbo

Thank you for the excellent references.

Cheers
Nick
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ur welcome

Postby jimmylegs » Mon May 15, 2006 12:02 pm

hey my pleasure, no prob
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Vitamin D/ insulin connection?

Postby lyndacarol » Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:10 pm

First of all, I love this site for the chance it gives us to come together with ideas! Maybe this is one more example.

I found the U.S. Pharmacist article on vitamin D (link given by jimmylegs, June 9) especially interesting when the author, Yadhu Singh, Ph.D., of South Dakota State University, wrote:

Diabetes mellitus: The dependence of normal insulin secretion in pancreatic ß-cells on vitamin D has been known for many decades.


I need to learn more about this "dependence...that has been known for decades" and which I never heard of before!

Since I am unable to bring my insulin production down with diet, perhaps this vitamin D angle will help. I'm working harder on it! Since I believe hyperinsulinemia is involved in my MS, could this Vitamin D/insulin connection explain the lower prevalence of MS in populations living closer to the equator? (And the virtual non-existence among Eskimos who have, not only a low-carb diet, but one high in salmon and fish, which are dietary sources of vitamin D.)

According to the article, there seem to be many disorders linked to a vitamin D deficiency or insufficiency. With a spot about deficiency on our local news yesterday, the subject may be finally coming into its own!
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diabetes/D/MS

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:48 pm

isn't it awesome LC?!
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Re: Vitamin D/ insulin connection?

Postby NHE » Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:22 am

lyndacarol wrote:...the virtual non-existence among Eskimos who have, not only a low-carb diet, but one high in salmon and fish, which are dietary sources of vitamin D.

Let's not forget that such a diet is also quite high in omega-3 fatty acids such as eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). Omega-3 oils such as EPA lead to the production of series 3 prostaglandins which are cell signaling molecules. The series 3 prostaglandins prevent platelets from sticking together, improve blood flow, and reduce inflammation.

In contrast, saturated fats which are rich in arachidonic acid lead to the production of series 2 prostaglandins. This class of prostaglandins promote platelet stickiness which plays a role in heart disease and strokes. Moreover, arachidonic acid promotes the production of inflammatory leukotrienes while omega-3s, such as EPA, promote the production of less inflammatory leukotrienes.

I realize that the above description is oversimplified. For a more detailed discussion of fat metabolism, I would recommend taking a look at Fats That Heal, Fats That Kill by Udo Erasmus. Another book with some good info in it is The Encyclopedia of Healing Foods by Michael Murray.

NHE
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biochem and D

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:25 am

yah the biochemistry is so complicated and interwoven. good fats are so important and a lot of other things too. it's not like you can get enough vitamin D and ignore everything else, but vitamin D could be a top of the chain indicator. i have been told to avoid all kinds of potentially inflammatory foods and make sure to have lots of anti-inflammatory foods. but i think it also is logical to manage the body's response to a food related inflammation.
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Alpha Lipoic Acid and Insulin Production

Postby Shayk » Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:04 pm

Hi LyndaCarol
You wrote some posts back:
Since I am unable to bring my insulin production down with diet,

You might want to check out alpha lipoic acid. It's been studied for MS.

Alpha Lipoic Acid Inhibits Insulin Secretion
CONCLUSIONS/INTERPRETATION: This study is the first to demonstrate that alpha-LA directly affects beta cell function. The chronic effects of alpha-LA include AMPK activation and reductions in insulin secretion and content, and cell growth.


Take care

Sharon
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Thanks

Postby lyndacarol » Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:16 pm

I GREATLY appreciate the info on Alpha-Lipoic acid and insulin secretion,. Inhibiting secretion is exacly what I want to do! I have tried alpha-LA for MONTHS, with no observable changes. I don't understand it.

Keep thinking of me.
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Postby ljm » Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:04 pm

Lyndacarol, could you perhaps adjust the dosage and see if ALA has an impact? I know that some people on this site are taking much higher dosages than the RDA
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To respond to several

Postby lyndacarol » Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:15 am

Yes, NHE, I think the fish oil is important on both ends of insulin!

(By the way, are prostaglandins and eicosanoids the same thing?)

And, ljm, I was using triple the suggested dosage--no effect.
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Vitamin D--Another part of the elephant!

Postby lyndacarol » Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:26 am

For my convenience, I post this here.

As a child, I enjoyed hearing the Hindu fable of "The Blind Men and the Elephant." Each of the six men with his hands on a different part of the same elephant had a different perception of the animal. Perhaps we are each a blind man with a part of the whole puzzle. We just need to put them together.

With credit and thanks to jimmylegs, I repeat her link to a Vitamin D article:

http://www.uspharmacist.com/index.asp?s ... 8_1352.htm

"Vitamin D Part 1: Are We Getting Enough?" by Yadhu N. Singh, PhD

At the end of Part 1, I found this particularly interesting:

Table 2: Cells with Cytosolic or
Nuclear and/or Membrane-Bound
Vitamin D Receptors 1-3

Activated T-Cells; Liver Cells
Aortic Endothelial Cells; Muscles Cells
Chrondocytes; Neurons
Circulating Monocytes; Osteoblasts
Colon Enterocytes; Ovarian Cells
Distal Renal Tubules; Parathyroid Cells
Endocrine Cells, Stomach; Prostate Cells
Epidermal Cells; Pituitary Cells
Islets Cells, Pancreas; Placenta Cells
Intestinal Cells; Skin Fibroblasts
Keratinocytes, Skin; Transformed B-Cells

Then:

http://www.uspharmacist.com/index.asp?s ... 8_1396.htm

"Vitamin D Part 2: Low Status and Chronic Diseases"

In the section on Diabetes Mellitus was the sentence posted earlier:

"The dependence of normal insulin secretion in pancreatic ß-cells on vitamin D has been known for many decades."


Thanks to Nick, I found more interesting material by Reinhold Vieth, PhD:

http://www.direct-ms.org/pdf/VitDVieth/ ... R%2061.pdf

The Pharmacology of Vitamin D, Including Fortification Strategies

"Multiple sclerosis is more prevalent in populations having lower levels of vitamin D nutrition or ultraviolet exposure (26; 30-32), and it has been proposed that vitamin D intake, ranging from 1,300 to 3,800 units per day, helps prevent the disease (32).
Last edited by lyndacarol on Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mystery creatures

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:22 pm

you are sure right about the elephant lc!! i think not only do we have our hands on different parts of our elephant, but that some of us are dealing with a hippo! nonetheless, they need all their parts to make sense as a whole.
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