Multiple Sclerosis not disease of immune system?

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Re: Multiple Sclerosis not disease of immune system?

Postby HarryZ » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:48 pm

Just a reminder HarryZ that not all "mainstream" researchers are devils and every individual with a fringe idea is not an angel. Hope everyone has a nice Christmas and Happy New Year!


Scorp,

Yes, I very well realize this and I know a couple of mainstream researchers who have given their careers in trying to find the answer to this dreaded disease. And believe me, after following MS research for over 40 years I am quite aware of the "fringe" people out there whose ethics are non existent.

I have little patience, though, with people who immediately trash new ideas and possibilites when it comes to MS research. I have seen how organizations such as the NMSS work behind the scenes to squash something they don't want to see progress. Let's just say I have seen and heard some pretty disgusting things in the world of MS medicine over the years and it leaves a sour taste.

Will this latest theory have any merit...who knows, only time will tell. But I can guarantee one thing...the scientist who published it is going to get a lot of grief from the established group, even before it is examined.

And a very Merry Christmas to you. Take care.

Harry
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Re: Multiple Sclerosis not disease of immune system?

Postby Leonard » Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:14 am

it is the system my friends, it is the system that fails...

there are many honest and devoted doctors and researchers, but what can these individuals do?

I am sure we will be witnessing the transformation of the system over the next few years.
where individuals can be stopped, the proliferation of knowledge is unstoppable..

wishing you a Merry Chrismas and a very happy and hopeful New Year,

Leo
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Re: Multiple Sclerosis not disease of immune system?

Postby tedhutchinson » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:45 pm

I have scrounged a full text copy of this paper if anyone wants to read it then PM or email me and I will be pleased to send you a PDF. I'm allowed to share it but not put it online.
Seems to me the ideas that this hypothesis is based on supports the idea of ccsvi but rather than CCSVI treating the results vein blockage this theory goes to the core of the problem.
IMO the same underlying cause also applies to heart disease, Alzhiemer's and diabetes so if you apply this theory your outcomes relating to health improvements should all be positive.
Bear in mind there is a lot of difference between treating established MS and preventing MS incidence.
I think this theory fits in very well with the ideas that have been promoted by Terry Wahls MD and DirectMS org so it's not the author is proposing particularly novel ideas, it's more that she is drawing together information we all should already be aware of.
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Re: Multiple Sclerosis not disease of immune system?

Postby Azaeleaprawn » Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:41 pm

So refreshing to see work on MS other than the old autoimmune stuff which continues to give encouragement to big pharma with their multi billion dollar disease modifying drug profits that fill their pockets and those of thousands of MS doctors.
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Re: Multiple Sclerosis not disease of immune system?

Postby cheerleader » Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:48 pm

Ted-
Welcome to the boards. The author culls together information from Drs. Swank, James and others who have looked at MS as a disease of the blood--specifically microembolisms and lipids. But she misses a huge connection, that of the endothelium, or the lining of all 60,000 miles of blood vessels in our bodies.

There are many, many reasons why blood might become hypercoagulated and vessels become constricted, inflamed and plaque ridden. These include low vitamin D, low vitamin B12, high c-reactive protein, high glucose intake, bacterial and viral infections and a host of modern-lifestyle complications, like smoking, stress and inactivity. All of these affect nitric oxide (NO) Lipids is only one factor.

The endothelial dysfunction theory encapsulates the lipid theory. This is why cardiovascular researchers like Dr. John Cooke at Stanford University are looking beyond lipids and statin administration into nitric oxide, diet, exercise and supplementation.
For more info:
http://www.ccsvi.org/index.php/helping- ... ial-health

The author also does not understand that Dr. Zamboni's discovery is one of intraluminal venous malformations, which appear to be congenital in nature. Add these malformations to hypercoagulated blood, inflammation and endothelial dysfunction, and you have a recipe for disease...like MS. This is what the International Society for Neurovascular Disease is looking at in terms of all neurodegenerative diseases.
http://www.isnvd.org/


cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: Multiple Sclerosis not disease of immune system?

Postby tedhutchinson » Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:46 am

cheerleader wrote:Ted-
Welcome to the boards. The author culls together information from Drs. Swank, James and others who have looked at MS as a disease of the blood--specifically microembolisms and lipids. But she misses a huge connection, that of the endothelium, or the lining of all 60,000 miles of blood vessels in our bodies.

There are many, many reasons why blood might become hypercoagulated and vessels become constricted, inflamed and plaque ridden. These include low vitamin D, low vitamin B12, high c-reactive protein, high glucose intake, bacterial and viral infections and a host of modern-lifestyle complications, like smoking, stress and inactivity. All of these affect nitric oxide (NO) Lipids is only one factor.

The endothelial dysfunction theory encapsulates the lipid theory. This is why cardiovascular researchers like Dr. John Cooke at Stanford University are looking beyond lipids and statin administration into nitric oxide, diet, exercise and supplementation.
For more info:
http://www.ccsvi.org/index.php/helping- ... ial-health

The author also does not understand that Dr. Zamboni's discovery is one of intraluminal venous malformations, which appear to be congenital in nature. Add these malformations to hypercoagulated blood, inflammation and endothelial dysfunction, and you have a recipe for disease...like MS. This is what the International Society for Neurovascular Disease is looking at in terms of all neurodegenerative diseases.
http://www.isnvd.org/


cheer
Have you actually read the paper?
Did you miss the references to endothelium in Table 2 and Table 3

We should also bear in mind that Improving Endothelial Health is something we can all do and is absolutely in line with the idea of MS is the result of metabolic dysfunction.
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Re: Multiple Sclerosis not disease of immune system?

Postby cheerleader » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:12 am

Thanks for linking to my endothelial health paper, Ted. That's the one I sent to Stanford, and how I originally got the researchers there looking at endothelial dysfunction, blood flow, CCSVI and MS.

There are many researchers saying MS is most likely not autoimmune (and, actually, always have been.) I hope this reseacher works with them. There is strength in numbers, and lipids is but one factor. But she still doesn't understand. What Dr. Zamboni found were congenital malformations in the jugular and azygos veins, noted on b-mode duplex ultrasound, and now upon autopsy (Fox/Cleveland Clinic). How the nature of the blood and endothelium exacerbate this situation is to be determined.

BNAC is working on it...they took lots of blood from their CCSVI study participants to establish some environmental risk factors. So far, they have shown a link to smoking and EBV (both endothelial disrupters) and CCSVI. They also found a correlation of CCSVI in those who had irritable bowel syndrome and those with heart murmurs. Here is the full paper from BNAC-

http://www.bnac.net/wp-content/uploads/ ... ntrols.pdf

Suppositions and theories are great, and flashy titles will get eyeballs, but they don't advance the science without collaboration and research.

cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
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Re: Multiple Sclerosis not disease of immune system?

Postby tedhutchinson » Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:35 am

cheerleader wrote: But she still doesn't understand. What Dr. Zamboni found were congenital malformations in the jugular and azygos veins, noted on b-mode duplex ultrasound, and now upon autopsy (Fox/Cleveland Clinic).
While I'm absolutely certain that Dr Zamboni is correct in identifying congenital malformations implicated in MS onset/progression and while I accept that low vitamin d status (and other micro-nutrient deficiencies) during pregnancy/lactation and early childhood will impact adversely on the growth/development of the brain and skull I'm not convinced this is the whole or only story.

I'm sure you are already aware of the work of Upright Doctor and the role of posture on Neurodegenerative diseases

While I'm sure for some people CCSVI will obtain symptom relief from Zamboni's intervention I suspect more will benefit from the example of
Dr. Terry Wahls - Minding Your Mitochondria as it impacts on the health of our mitchondria and they are fundamental to the health of our astrocytes which in turn ultimatelyregulate the flow of blood through the brain.

I think we have to remember the human body/brain is an adaptive structure and healthy diet/lifestyle enables those adaptations to occur.
I'm interested to see how the role of PPAR's in other conditions such as Alzheimer's and Diabetes plays out.
The projected rise in obesity and neurodegenerative disorders is alarming and while it's the case that we may enjoy increased life expectancy, it isn't in the form of extra years with ideal Quality of Life.
I'm more interested in achieving better quality of life than just longer life at any cost.
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