MS and Rheumatoid Arthritis

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MS and Rheumatoid Arthritis

Postby DougL » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:38 am

i am still doing the searching/reading but wondering if anyone cared to opine on MS and Rheumatoid Arthritis.

is it common to have both?

knee pain has been the biggest complaint since CCSVI treatment and now we know why. both knees are bad. good news is she likely won't ever need surgery, just more drugs.

CCSVI, MS, RA - what's next for this poor woman?

i think CCSVI played a role in her MS. did it also play a role in her RA?
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Re: MS and Rheumatoid Arthritis

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:54 am

here's an article re comorbidity stats:

Comorbidities amongst patients with multiple sclerosis: a population-based controlled study
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20192982
"... regression analyses showed that patients with MS were more likely to have ... peripheral vascular disorders (OR = 6.6, 95% CI = 4.0-11.0), deficiency anemias (OR = 4.9, 95% CI = 2.8-8.7), rheumatoid arthritis (OR = 4.8, 95% CI = 2.9-8.1) and fluid and electrolyte disorders (OR = 4.8, 95% CI = 2.8-8.3) than the matched controls."

also, posted this list of studies on RA and nutrition the other day:
general-discussion-f1/topic19401.html#p187711
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Re: MS and Rheumatoid Arthritis

Postby DougL » Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:14 am

thank JL, i knew you would be all over this. i did read your post on RA and nutrition.

i also just read the first part on comorbidity... thanks
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Re: MS and Rheumatoid Arthritis

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:05 pm

no probs! :)

my maternal grandmother realllly suffered with RA, hers was very bad. terrible diet, terrible sweet tooth. if i had only known then what i know now!

i also spent a chunk of time a couple years ago compiling some research on nutrition and juvenile RA, so it was just a matter of bringing it back and connecting with MS as well.

changed the title of your post, so that the site would also pick up and display related topics below... may or may not contain info of interest to you.
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Re: MS and Rheumatoid Arthritis

Postby BeckyMiller » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:10 pm

It is very understandable that you would have both, because both are caused by the exact same thing: exposure to methanol, whether in the environment, through smoking, or through diet. That is why they are finding that arthritis meds help with MS. But what is even better is if you avoid methanol, which is actually easy to do. Don't smoke and follow a methanol-free diet. I will be happy to email you a chapter from a book by Woodrow Monte, PhD that explains how methanol causes MS. His book also explains the arthritis connection. Just email me at beckymillerartist at yahoo dot com. I promise you won't ever get spammed as a result of your request and I won't bother you again.
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Re: MS and Rheumatoid Arthritis

Postby civickiller » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:21 pm

BeckyMiller wrote:It is very understandable that you would have both, because both are caused by the exact same thing: exposure to methanol, whether in the environment, through smoking, or through diet. That is why they are finding that arthritis meds help with MS. But what is even better is if you avoid methanol, which is actually easy to do. Don't smoke and follow a methanol-free diet. I will be happy to email you a chapter from a book by Woodrow Monte, PhD that explains how methanol causes MS. His book also explains the arthritis connection. Just email me at beckymillerartist at yahoo dot com. I promise you won't ever get spammed as a result of your request and I won't bother you again.


this doesnt explain then why does my friend who smokes and eats fast food at least 3 times a week doesnt have ms and i dont smoke and eat fast food once a month, if that, does have ms. this may exacerbate symptoms but idk about causing it

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http://www.erinelster.com/CaseStudies.a ... itionID=21
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Re: MS and Rheumatoid Arthritis

Postby Leonard » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:30 am

I think the relation is explained by the gut.
It is a misguided immune system by the gut that cause a number of chronic "immune" diseases.
see the last posting on pg 20 of general-discussion-f1/topic15188-285.html
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Re: MS and Rheumatoid Arthritis

Postby jackD » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:46 pm

MMPs play a BIG role in MS damage. Especially rogue MMP-9s.

In arthritis both rheumatoid arthritis (RA) and osteoarthritis (OA) MMPs also do the greatest amount of damage.

jackD


Front Biosci. 2006 Jan 1;11:529-43.

Matrix metalloproteinases: role in arthritis.

Burrage PS, Mix KS, Brinckerhoff CE.

Department of Biochemistry, Dartmouth Medical School, Dartmouth Hitchcock Medical Center, Lebanon, NH 03756, USA.

The irreversible destruction of the cartilage, tendon, and bone that comprise synovial joints is the hallmark of both rheumatoid arthritis (RA) and osteoarthritis (OA).

While cartilage is made up of proteoglycans and type II collagen, tendon and bone are composed primarily of type I collagen. RA is an autoimmune disease afflicting numerous joints throughout the body; in contrast, OA develops in a small number of joints, usually resulting from chronic overuse or injury.

In both diseases, inflammatory cytokines such as interleukin-1 beta (IL-1 beta) and tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha) stimulate the production of matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs), enzymes that can degrade all components of the extracellular matrix. The collagenases, MMP-1 and MMP-13, have predominant roles in RA and OA because they are rate limiting in the process of collagen degradation.

MMP-1 is produced primarily by the synovial cells that line the joints, and MMP-13 is a product of the chondrocytes that reside in the cartilage. In addition to collagen, MMP-13 also degrades the proteoglycan molecule, aggrecan, giving it a dual role in matrix destruction.

Expression of other MMPs such as MMP-2, MMP-3 and MMP-9, is also elevated in arthritis and these enzymes degrade non-collagen matrix components of the joints.

Significant effort has been expended in attempts to design effective inhibitors of MMP activity and/or synthesis with the goal of curbing connective tissues destruction within the joints.

To date, however, no effective clinical inhibitors exist. Increasing our knowledge of the crystal structures of these enzymes and of the signal transduction pathways and molecular mechanisms that control MMP gene expression may provide new opportunities for the development of therapeutics to prevent the joint destruction seen in arthritis.


PMID: 16146751 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Last edited by jackD on Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MS and Rheumatoid Arthritis

Postby brm » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:40 am

Hi everyone,

Although I've been reading this forum for a few years now, as you can probably tell it's not my habit of posting much. But a few days ago, this topic caught my eye. Personally, I was diagnosed with MS in 2009, when I was almost 31 years old.

Now, I don't have RA myself, but my brother unfortunately does. He's about nine years older, but like me, he got diagnosed in his early thirties. To me, it has always seemed that there has to be a link somehow.

Of course, this link might very well be that we both have lousy immune systems, but I've been reading the chapter Dr Monte wrote about MS (you can just download it from his website by the way) and to me he seems to make a very interesting argument that methanol might be the cause. I've also read things that reminded me much about CCSVI and about the importance of healthy mitochondria as stressed by Dr Wahls.

I guess all I want to say is that if you're looking for something to read: I'd recommend downloading that chapter. Hopefully, you'll find it as interesting as I do.

Cheers,
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Re: MS and Rheumatoid Arthritis

Postby brm » Fri May 31, 2013 3:15 am

To follow up: I've tried this 'monte diet' for about a year, but this does not seem to have stopped progression or relapses. While I still think the theory is quite nice, in my case dietary intake of methanol does not seem to be the culprit (guess it could still be generated in the gut by some kinds of bacteria but I wouldn't know what to do about that)
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Re: MS and Rheumatoid Arthritis

Postby Annesse » Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:22 pm

I made a series of posts here a while back on what I believe is at the root of all autoimmune diseases-an inability to digest dietary proteins due to a lack of enzymes called protease. Here is some info from my book on the connection to RA and the inability to digest proteins.

Rheumatoid Arthritis, Osteoporosis, Vitamin D, and Adequate Protein Digestion

As early as the 1940s, Dr. Arnold Renshaw of Manchester, England suspected rheumatoid arthritis might stem from an enzyme deficiency that interferes with protein digestion. He based his suspicions, published in the Annals of Rheumatic Disease in 1947, on the high incidence of intestinal atrophy he observed while conducting thousands of autopsies on patients who had rheumatoid arthritis at the time of death.

Dr. Renshaw understood that the inability to digest proteins would lead not only to nutrient deficiencies, it would also result in incompletely digested protein fragments in the bloodstream, which would trigger an immune response. In the following excerpt from his study, Dr. Renshaw stated, “It has been held that the insidious and slowly developing processes of chronic rheumatism may be due to the continued influx of incompletely digested protein fragments into the blood stream.”


Intestinal extract in rheumatic diseases.

Renshaw, A. 1947. Ann Rheum Dis. 6:1 15-35doi:10.1136/ard.6.1.15

“…As a result of numerous post-mortem examinations, sometimes as many as four or six a day for many years, the frequency with which atrophy of the small intestine occurred and the variations in the appearance of this organ when it was systematically opened and examined throughout its entire length impressed itself upon the writer. The conclusion was reached that rheumatoid arthritis might be a deficiency disease, with perhaps some associated allergic basis, and that the deficiency might arise from an inability to deal adequately with protein digestion and metabolism…

It has been held that the insidious and slowly developing processes of chronic rheumatism may be due to the continued influx of incompletely digested protein fragments into the blood stream, which act as antigens against which the antibody content of the circulating blood is low. The antigen-antibody reaction takes place within the cells with subsequent anaphylactic inflammation, the condition being described as allergic. The theory of protein allergy has the support of many workers in this field, one of whom, Gudzent (1940), was able to produce rheumatic tissue lesions in animals by various types of proteins, and observations on patients indicated that food proteins (animal as well as vegetable) are chiefly responsible. They produce under certain conditions antibody-antigen or allergic reactions, with their cytotoxic effects on the connective tissues, and thus lead to rheumatic tissue lesions…”





Lita Lee, Ph.D., a chemist and enzyme nutritionist, explained the connection to an inability to properly digest proteins and arthritis clearly when she wrote:

“All forms of arthritis involve abnormal calcium metabolism. Ninety-nine percent
of the body calcium is (or should be) in the bones and teeth. The other one percent, found in
the blood, is just as important because it is essential in the blood clotting
mechanism, muscle and nerve function, vitamin D function, and the
function of hormones that control calcium metabolism (called parathyroid
hormones). Of the one percent of calcium in the blood, half is protein-bound
and half is ionized. Both require adequate protein digestion. If you
are deficient in protein because you can’t digest it, you cannot carry protein-bound
calcium. If you lack optimum acidity from inadequate digestion of
protein, you will not have enough ionized calcium. In either case, you are a
candidate for arthritis.

The abnormal deposit of calcium is one of the factors involved in arthritis
and arthritic inflammation. Soft tissue, any kind of body tissue other than
bones and teeth, is a target for depositing calcium. Wherever this happens,
pathology occurs: in the joints, around inflamed areas (osteoarthritis), in
the arteries (arteriosclerosis), in the kidneys (kidney stones), in the soft
lenses of the eyes (cataracts), in the brain (stroke) and so on” (Lee, 2009).


As the following study from Mayo College of Medicine stated, an “array of studies” implicate PROTEASE in MS pathogenesis.

The multiple sclerosis degradome: enzymatic cascades in development and progression of central nervous system inflammatory disease.
Scarisbrick, I.A. 2008. Curr Top Microbiol Immunol. 318:133-75.

“An array of studies implicate different classes of protease and their endogenous inhibitors in multiple sclerosis (MS) pathogenesis based on expression patterns in MS lesions, sera, and/or cerebrospinal fluid (CSF). Growing evidence exists regarding their mechanistic roles in inflammatory and neurodegenerative aspects of this disease…”


The same thing that Dr. Renshaw knew was taking place in arthritis is taking place in MS. A lack of protease leads to incompletely digested protein fragments entering the bloodstream.

In the following study researchers discovered that 40.9% of the MS patients tested had undigested meat fibers in their stools. Protease would be responsible for the digestion of the proteins found in meat, as well as the proteins found in other foods. A lack of protease would explain the undigested meat fibers in patients with MS.

Multiple sclerosis and malabsorption.
Gupta, J.K., A.P. Ingegno, A.W. Cook, L.P. Pertschuk. 1977. Am J Gastroenterol. 68(6):560-5.


“Malabsorption tests were studied in 52 patients with multiple sclerosis. The stools were examined microscopically for fat and undigested meat fibers and were found to be abnormal in 41.6 and 40.9% respectively. Malabsorption of Vitamin B12 was found in 11.9% cases…”

There are two basic components to autoimmune disease. The first is the "immune system" component triggered by the DNA and protein fragments entering the bloodstream. The second is the deficiency component that results from a lack of proteins. One of which would be vitamin B12, which was mentioned in the study.

There are immune cells called dendritic cells that will react to the foreign protein fragments and DNA. These cells then release cytokines such as tumor necrosis factor.

In the following study the researchers stated that emerging evidence indicates that dendritic cells play a critical role in the initiation and progression of MS.
Targeting dendritic cells to treat multiple sclerosis.
Comabella, M., X. Montalban, C. Münz, J.D. Lünemann. 2010. Nat Rev Neurol. 6(9):499-507. doi: 10.1038/nrneurol.2010.112. Epub 2010 Aug 17.
“Multiple sclerosis (MS) is considered to be a predominantly T-cell-mediated disease, and emerging evidence indicates that dendritic cells have a critical role in the initiation and progression of this debilitating condition…”

Here is one study that discusses dendritic cells in the initiation and progression of RA, but you can find many more if you do a search.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/b ... 6/art00004

These missing enzymes can explain every component of the disease process of MS and RA in a very direct biological way.
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