Bacteriotherapy - 3 cases of MS remission

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Re: Fecal Microbiota Transplantation - 3 cases

Postby cervocuit » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:37 am

Thanks for the link Merlin. So it can be proposed for MS very quickly.
Lib,
This report of 3 cases is from december 2011 so it’s quite new.
Nutrition is more about diet than probiotics. There is a diet section on this forum that discuss such and such diet. If you look at what those diet have in commons, you will see that it is to avoid gluten, dairy, sugar… All those think we have not evolved for eating. In France we have also two famous diets which are basically the same. Both were talking in their book about leaky gut syndrome. One by dr Kousmine who wrote a book called « MS is curable ? » in 1977 (she also recommands colonic irrigation). The other is dr Seignalet, who wrote a book called « nutrition or the 3rd medecine » who describes how all the modern diseases are caused by modern diet. Some have considered him as a fraud, others as a genius. Lorax2013 of youtube talk about him in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVn-jmCi4zI
My neurologist does not agree with that too because "no scientific study has proven blablabla..." But my gastroenterologist said the neurologists should more worry about what happens in their patients gut.
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Re: Fecal Microbiota Transplantation - 3 cases

Postby Liberation » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:04 am

cervocuit wrote:Thanks for the link Merlin. So it can be proposed for MS very quickly.
Lib,
This report of 3 cases is from december 2011 so it’s quite new.
Nutrition is more about diet than probiotics. There is a diet section on this forum that discuss such and such diet. If you look at what those diet have in commons, you will see that it is to avoid gluten, dairy, sugar… All those think we have not evolved for eating. In France we have also two famous diets which are basically the same. Both were talking in their book about leaky gut syndrome. One by dr Kousmine who wrote a book called « MS is curable ? » in 1977 (she also recommands colonic irrigation). The other is dr Seignalet, who wrote a book called « nutrition or the 3rd medecine » who describes how all the modern diseases are caused by modern diet. Some have considered him as a fraud, others as a genius. Lorax2013 of youtube talk about him in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVn-jmCi4zI
My neurologist does not agree with that too because "no scientific study has proven blablabla..." But my gastroenterologist said the neurologists should more worry about what happens in their patients gut.


Thank you, cervocuit. I am sure that our modern diet has a causative effect on the modern diseases. However, besides food, there are also lots of other things that changed with our modern life form, like lack of phisical activity, polluted air, electricity all around us, cell phones, stress etc. Probably, our genes are getting worse and worse as less and less infants die throug illness and even the weakers are kept alive with our modern health care. 500 years ago the weakers died when great epedemics took their toll, so mostly the strongers' healthiers' genes were passed over generations by generations. So, I think it is very difficult to say what causes modern diseases today.

What was intruiging to me with the FMT is that it is a strong change in sy's gut microbiota. I think if a disease develops in decades that it is impossible to erase it by only diet in a few months or years. Even dr Wahls' recovery is very far from being a full rocovery. She also could not replicate her recovery with others, even though she talked about if for over quite a few years.

So, FMT seems a very interesting option and I just hope more study will completed in the near future or at least more and more doctors will use it for MS patients off label. I agree with your gastroenterologist that gut microbiota has a much more important role than what many of us would suppose.
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Re: Fecal Microbiota Transplantation - 3 cases

Postby cervocuit » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:04 am

I agree with you, and you forgot to mention the lack of sun exposure. Vitamine D influence the gut microbiota and the immune system.
I don’t know what to think about the gut microbiota. I have read that it was builded up all along the life, starting with the vaginal bacteria of mothers. But in this paper, they say that it can be changed in a single day if a "humanised" mouse (mouse that had a FMT of human faeces) change diet from low fat diet to western diet.
http://www.congrex.ch/fileadmin/files/2 ... harcot.pdf
The microbiota seems to be very complex so perhaps there is certain part of it which can't be modified by diet only.
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Re: Fecal Microbiota Transplantation - 3 cases

Postby Liberation » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:07 am

cervocuit wrote:I agree with you, and you forgot to mention the lack of sun exposure. Vitamine D influence the gut microbiota and the immune system.
I don’t know what to think about the gut microbiota. I have read that it was builded up all along the life, starting with the vaginal bacteria of mothers. But in this paper, they say that it can be changed in a single day if a "humanised" mouse (mouse that had a FMT of human faeces) change diet from low fat diet to western diet.
http://www.congrex.ch/fileadmin/files/2 ... harcot.pdf
The microbiota seems to be very complex so perhaps there is certain part of it which can't be modified by diet only.


Eventhough it is almost impossible to figure out what causes MS, the article that you posted on FMT is very interesting. I am just wondering what percentage of the MS patients they treated with FMT showed improvements.

I was just wondering whether all the improvements were seen in RRMS patients or PPMS as well.

I also do not understand how to reconcile the fact that both antibiotics (which is supposed to damage the colonial flora) and both FMT (that helps to rebuild gut flora) seem to help recovery from MS.

Anyone knows the email address of Prof. Borody? Any doctors doing this procedure in Europe?
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Re: Fecal Microbiota Transplantation - 3 cases

Postby cervocuit » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:50 am

But there has never been any clinical trial on MS yet.

Antibiotics are supposed to kill bad bacteria whereas the probiotics are supposed to favor the good ones.

There is an email adresse on the contact page of dr.Borody's website if you like.
http://www.cdd.com.au/pages/contact.html
FMT is a clinical treatment option offered at our centre, this is not a clinical trial and all costs are covered by the patient.

FMT is a treatment option for offered to those with the following conditions:

Clostridium difficile infections
Ulcerative colitis
Irritable Bowel Syndrome
Constipation
Crohn’s disease

FMT is not guaranteed to cure other conditions such as Multiple Sclerosis, Parkinson’s disease etc will need to be assessed on a case by case basis

Please send your email enquiry with a short summary of your disease history to overseas@cdd.com.au if you wish to book for a phone consultation. All correspondence regarding your consultation will be via this email address. Someone will then respond to your enquiry. Please note – responses to enquiries may take time.
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Re: Fecal Microbiota Transplantation - 3 cases

Postby Liberation » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:14 am

cervocuit wrote:But there has never been any clinical trial on MS yet.

Antibiotics are supposed to kill bad bacteria whereas the probiotics are supposed to favor the good ones.

There is an email adresse on the contact page of dr.Borody's website if you like.
http://www.cdd.com.au/pages/contact.html
FMT is a clinical treatment option offered at our centre, this is not a clinical trial and all costs are covered by the patient.

FMT is a treatment option for offered to those with the following conditions:

Clostridium difficile infections
Ulcerative colitis
Irritable Bowel Syndrome
Constipation
Crohn’s disease

FMT is not guaranteed to cure other conditions such as Multiple Sclerosis, Parkinson’s disease etc will need to be assessed on a case by case basis

Please send your email enquiry with a short summary of your disease history to overseas@cdd.com.au if you wish to book for a phone consultation. All correspondence regarding your consultation will be via this email address. Someone will then respond to your enquiry. Please note – responses to enquiries may take time.


Hi cervocuit,

thanks for the link.

You are right, there has not been clinical trial on MS, only three MS patients' conditions were followed for a few years and all three benefited from the treatment. Since, currently there is no official treatment for MS, only those notorious desease modifying drugs, which are already proved to be ineffective to delay and stall progression it is everyone's choice to try off-label treatments that are already proved to be safe. If it is effective that we will see. Even the Earth was round before Gelileo. :) Personally, I would take the chance to try FTM if it is available for gastroenterological problems. As far as I know they applied this treatment in the US and it is safe. We all try lots of suppliments, diets, etc. It doen't seem different.:)

I tried the link but I could not find direct contact to Prof Borody, they only communicate with their own patients for money, so it would be good to find some other place in Europe. The procedure doesn't seem a rocket science, so I would be really surprised if no one does it in Europe.
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Re: Fecal Microbiota Transplantation - 3 cases

Postby CureOrBust » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:27 pm

I have to say that personally I would not be trying this till a lot more information comes in. 8O

However, a few years ago, here in Australia, a friend of mine who has suffered many years of IBS, went to a respected specialist in the field, and he suggested what I think is this exact same treatment for it. It made more sense for IBS, but when he told me, I advised against it (as a friend not a doctor).

My point is, I think this treatment may be more commonly available than you think, and therefore you may not need to travel overseas for it. Have you tried getting in touch with a local specialist who treats IBS? at the very least they would of heard of this treatment; its not one you quickly forget.
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Re: Fecal Microbiota Transplantation - 3 cases

Postby Liberation » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:45 pm

CureOrBust wrote:I have to say that personally I would not be trying this till a lot more information comes in. 8O

However, a few years ago, here in Australia, a friend of mine who has suffered many years of IBS, went to a respected specialist in the field, and he suggested what I think is this exact same treatment for it. It made more sense for IBS, but when he told me, I advised against it (as a friend not a doctor).

My point is, I think this treatment may be more commonly available than you think, and therefore you may not need to travel overseas for it. Have you tried getting in touch with a local specialist who treats IBS? at the very least they would of heard of this treatment; its not one you quickly forget.


Hi CureOrBust,
thanks for the info. I'm not sure if I got it right, but the specialist advised against it or you? What was the reason for that? What I thought of is mainly getting some bad bacteria if things are not screened properly. That is surely is a potential risk. To me the fact that all three MS patients' conditions improved significantly seems very promising. However, I know what we read on the internet usually do not reflect reality.

On the other hand, I feel that there is a huge risk with every available drugs, not to mention any new drug which does not have a long track record yet. Unfortunately, with MS even deciding to wait can bear a huge risk.

I think what someone can lose by waiting for a new approved treatement will never be regained with what he waited for. So, I think many of us just takes chance with different diets, suppliments, CCSVI treatments, stem cells, etc.
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Re: Fecal Microbiota Transplantation - 3 cases

Postby CureOrBust » Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:35 am

Liberation wrote:I'm not sure if I got it right, but the specialist advised against it or you? What was the reason for that?
It was me, the specialist was offering the treatment as a possibility. The reason for my hesitation, is that if they had a sample of a number of people without IBS, and a number of people with IBS, more research should be done on the difference, and only culture and add that particular bacteria. ie They obviously had no idea how it really works (or if it does). It did not seem like science to me. That was also 10-15 years ago.

Liberation wrote:What I thought of is mainly getting some bad bacteria if things are not screened properly. That is surely is a potential risk.
I was also arguing that if they didn't know what helped, they also did not know what could hurt. Infections from things more serious than a bacteria would possibly be let through.

Liberation wrote:To me the fact that all three MS patients' conditions improved significantly seems very promising. However, I know what we read on the internet usually do not reflect reality.
Read the wonder stories about Aimspro when it first came out; they were remarkable. Not only has it not lived up to the hype, I have tried it and it did not work for me.

As for 3 patients, I actually found it more interesting, that in their small sample size of patients, they managed to "randomly" get 3 patients who had MS. What were the odds on that? Also, the fact that they were assigned to this treatment for another complaint, opens the possibility that maybe "their MS" was related to this other condition. So if you are not showing the other condition, I would hazard a guess the treatment is possibly a stretch for you. But I would love you to prove me wrong.

Liberation wrote:On the other hand, I feel that there is a huge risk with every available drugs, not to mention any new drug which does not have a long track record yet. Unfortunately, with MS even deciding to wait can bear a huge risk.
I understand, but at least we know a few thousand have gone before us, not 3.

Liberation wrote:I think what someone can lose by waiting for a new approved treatment will never be regained with what he waited for. So, I think many of us just takes chance with different diets, suppliments, CCSVI treatments, stem cells, etc.
I have tried MANY off-label treatments, none of which have really shown a true result. You are preaching to the choir. Also what is too little discussed, is the hope lost waiting for a new treatment.
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Re: Fecal Microbiota Transplantation - 3 cases

Postby Liberation » Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:10 am

Thanks CureOrBust.

I thought that you are aware of some specific risk involved regarding FMT. I am sure there are some just like with anything.

I agree that more research is needed, but we live this time. While an idea becomes an FDA approved treatment takes about 20 years or more. When Columbus sailed to America the common beliefe was that the Earth is flat and Columbus will fall off the edge. Yes, he took a big risk. :)

I am just wondering how much the Australian treatment differs fom the others. Do they do a different screening or inject back something different?
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Re: Fecal Microbiota Transplantation - 3 cases

Postby Liberation » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:11 pm

In the case of multiple sclerosis, a confirmatory study was published last year by Kerstin Berer and her colleagues in Germany. They showed, again in mice, that gut bacteria are indeed involved in triggering the reaction that causes the body’s immune system to turn against certain nerve cells and strip away their insulation in precisely the way that leads to multiple sclerosis.
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Re: Fecal Microbiota Transplantation - 3 cases

Postby cervocuit » Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:21 am

If you search for "gut multiple sclerosis" on Pubmed, you will find a bunch of study on this field including Berer's works.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?ter ... +sclerosis
There is a growing interest on this according to google trends.
http://www.google.com/trends/explore?hl ... ome&cmpt=q
You can also find a lot of videos on Youtiube. For example, a recent one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWT_BLVOASI
This video is from the scweiz TV (in french), where they talk about Borody:
http://www.rts.ch/emissions/36-9/449952 ... L.facebook
The message is spreading !
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Re: Fecal Microbiota Transplantation - 3 cases

Postby cervocuit » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:02 am

Someone put the video of Shweiz TV on youtube with subtitles.
You can translate it in English with the options in the bottom right corner. The translation seems to be very good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... EkZpSmMI0#!
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Re: Fecal Microbiota Transplantation - 3 cases

Postby Bender » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:58 am

gibbledygook wrote:I deteriorated significantly after taking a powerful probiotic supplement... I wonder what is in a fecal microbiotic transplantation?!

poop, ideally from someone you are close with.

i think it is is shown to work I would do this, but... it's kinda gross.

That said, not as bad as having the sensation of a razor cutting open my foot for no reason randomly... right?
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Re: Fecal Microbiota Transplantation - 3 cases

Postby erimus » Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:19 am

this treatment is now available in the UK at the Taymount clinic
http://www.taymount.com/
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