Will the real multiple sclerosis please stand up?

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Re: Will the real multiple sclerosis please stand up?

Postby cervocuit » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:04 am

jimmylegs wrote:prions and protein misfolding seemed to enjoy a few mentions here a few years ago, off my radar entirely until this year. thoughts on that angle?
I never heard of that before, but from a quick research, they are suspected in neurodegeneratives disease but not MS ?
HarryZ wrote:Interesting comment about other autoimmune diseases. My wife, who had MS for 36 years, rarely had a cold or any kind of viral problem after her first attack. I can remember her neuro telling her years ago that they thought MS patients had an overactive immune system and, as a result, didn't come down with other viral diseases nearly as often as other people. Yet, as a teenager, she had the measles 3 times! Go figure.
One thing I have noticed since I started diet, is an unexpected and total disparition of allergies, which are not other things than an immune system overreaction. That’s why I found this old paper of Dr.Jonez very interesting.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 14/?page=1
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Re: Will the real multiple sclerosis please stand up?

Postby cheerleader » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:57 am

cervocuit wrote:It’s an interesting theory, but does dr Stys explains in his paper what we can see on MRI ?
Does he think that the neurodegeneration is disseminated in time and space (not the case in Alzheimer) ? Otherwise, the neurodegeneration is global and for those who have a reactiv immune systetm (the youngs), it clean up only selected debris between whiles for some reason ?

There is also evidences that people with MS has more chance to develop other autoimmune deseases. It’s hard to believe that a slow neurodegeneration would create acute inflammation in bowel or joints. The only one person with MS that I know personally had hashimoto’s thyroidis 5 years before the first symptom of MS.


Cervocuit---you really need to get the full paper....but I'll try to explain what Dr. Stys is proposing, because it's brilliant.....he calls it the "inside-out model of MS"
Dr. Stys's theory is that--
The inside-out model of MS (FIG. 1) proposes that in MS, there is a primary ‘cytodegeneration’ that might initially be focused on the oligodendrocytes and myelin, presumably beginning years before any overt clinical symptoms occur (BOX 1). What sets MS
apart from other monotonically progressive neurodegenerative disorders is the host’s predilection to react to the highly autoantigenic components (for example, citrullinated myelin basic protein (MBP)35, myelin lipids36 and externalized phosphatidylserine from ‘apoptotic myelin membranes’ (REF.12)) that are released as a consequence of the cytodegeneration.
Thus, this model proposes that MS results from a convolution between progressive cytodegeneration and a variably
primed immune system.


Stys discusses other related autoimmune diseases and how cytodegeneration creates mitochondrial disfunction. He proposes a few models for cytodegeneration, like copper ion dysregulation, glial dysfunction and virtual hypoxia.

And yes, this can be measured by MRI. There is measurable atrophy in the thalamus, brain stem, cortex and other deep gray matter areas, but Stys does not go into MRI---that's not his area of expertise....I recommend Zivadinov and BNAC for more on that topic. Nothing about prions or proteins in this paper, JL...but I think mitochondrial dysfunction and cytodegeneration may become the new MS "buzz" words. We'll see.
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Re: Will the real multiple sclerosis please stand up?

Postby HarryZ » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:45 am

One thing I have noticed since I started diet, is an unexpected and total disparition of allergies, which are not other things than an immune system overreaction. That’s why I found this old paper of Dr.Jonez very interesting.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 14/?page=1


My goodness, Dr. Jonez!!

Back in the late 40's and early 50's Dr. Jonez treated thousands and thousands of MS patients with IV histamine. Supposedly, some 80% of the patients encountered symptom relief of varying degrees. He was at odds with MS neurologists at the time because he thought MS was a circulatory disease. He died suddenly in 1953 (I think) and all of his research died with him.

IV Histamine treatment was the precursor to Prokarin, an alternative MS medication that was introduced in 2000. My wife started using Prokarin in 2000 and it had a large positive effect on several of her MS symptoms. Her fatigue levels greatly improved, her tolerance to heat became much better and she started to walk better. Unfortunately, she had a nasty, awkward fall in 2001, broke her leg in 3 places and that started the downward trend with her MS.
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Re: Will the real multiple sclerosis please stand up?

Postby CVfactor » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:07 pm

“I guess we have no choice, do we? I mean, there
is so much push and pressure,” Dr. Peter Stys, a
professor of clinical neuroscience and an MS
researcher at the University of Calgary says of the
money being poured into CCSVI research at record
speed. Stys does not deal directly with MS patients
but he does research the disease. “I think if this
issue went through (the) normal, regular, sober,
peer-review process, it wouldn’t go nearly as
far . . . (as) it has at the moment, because the
science is just not there.”

http://liberationtreatmentccsvi.com/2010/09/ms-doctors-attacked-for-their-skepticism/
I guess Stys is going for the money now.
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Re: Will the real multiple sclerosis please stand up?

Postby cervocuit » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:42 pm

cheeleader wrote:And yes, this can be measured by MRI. There is measurable atrophy in the thalamus, brain stem, cortex and other deep gray matter areas, but Stys does not go into MRI---that's not his area of expertise...
I was talking about conventional MRI to detect demyelinating lesions. If the inflammatory lesions are created by an immune system attacking autoantibodies released after cytodegeneration (which I understand to be homogeneous in a large part of the brain like in Alzheimer), why the inflammatory lesions are localised and disseminated in time and space that much.
http://www.med.harvard.edu/AANLIB/cases ... 2/020.html
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Re: Will the real multiple sclerosis please stand up?

Postby HarryZ » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:10 pm

I guess Stys is going for the money now.


Will likely take him about 15 years to catch up to the rest of the researchers who get $$$ for MS work!

As for Dr. Freedman in the article....I wonder if publicly calling Dr. Zamboni a "quack" had anything to do with the backlash he got. Even his colleagues were taken aback by the comment as docs rarely criticize their peers in public in this manner.
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Re: Will the real multiple sclerosis please stand up?

Postby CVfactor » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:51 pm

If the beak fits........
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Re: Will the real multiple sclerosis please stand up?

Postby HarryZ » Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:32 pm

CVfactor wrote:If the beak fits........


Let's put it this way....in the world of medicine, if a doc publicly berrates one of his peers, this is extremely frowned upon within their brethren. Whether the criticism is deserved or not, it's not the way the docs want to project their profession. I'm sure that Freedman had a brain cramp when he blurted out his comment but the damage was done and the wrath he has endured can't be taken back. He shouldn't be surprised at all at the backlash and I bet he won't make the same mistake again.
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Re: Will the real multiple sclerosis please stand up?

Postby cervocuit » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:47 am

Dr. Peter Stys, a professor of clinical neuroscience and an MS researcher at the University of Calgary, said the findings show CCSVI may be a response from the way veins have drained over the years from a brain inflamed by MS and other neuroinflammatory diseases.
“Importantly, CCSVI is no more the cause of MS than a swollen ankle is the cause of the underlying
fractured bone,” Stys said. “Therefore, stenting veins in CCSVI will not cure MS any more than icing the ankle will somehow fix the fractured bone.”
http://www.ucalgary.ca/dcns/system/files/CCSVI+update_19april2011.pdf
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Re: Will the real multiple sclerosis please stand up?

Postby cheerleader » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:51 am

This new review from Calgary was posted in the general forum, and discusses MS as a primary cytodegenerative disease. I posted the link to the full paper, for those who wish to purchase it. Dr. Stys' paper is not about CCSVI.
Dr. Stys recently spoke about his research at an MS Society meeting in Alberta, where Dr. David Hubbard was the other guest presenter, and the two doctors had a good, civil and respectful discussion--one based in current research. Here is the video, for those who want to understand more about Stys' research.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLE3szhXeRw
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Re: Will the real multiple sclerosis please stand up?

Postby HarryZ » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:25 am

Cheer,

Very interesting presentation by Stys, to say the least! Would imagine that many of the mainstream MS researchers wouldn't be too happy with his theory.

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Re: Will the real multiple sclerosis please stand up?

Postby cervocuit » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:55 am

CVfactor wrote:Also, if MS was homogenous it would not only effect the eight functional systems as measured in the EDSS scale.

The eight Functional Systems (FS) and their
abbreviations are as follows:
Pyramidal (motor function) (P)
Cerebellar (C11)
Brainstem (BS)
Sensory (S)
Bowel and Bladder (BB)
Visual (V)
Cerebral or Mental (Cb)
Other (O)
I wonder if patients with PPMS, which are supposed to have no inflammation, have a loss of all these functions at the end of their life.
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Re: Will the real multiple sclerosis please stand up?

Postby CVfactor » Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:50 am

I don't beleive that the end point of PPMS (or any other type for that matter) means you will have dissability in all of these functional areas, but these are the functions that effect people with MS generally. Here is a better explanation:
http://ms.about.com/od/multiplesclerosis101/a/ms_edss.htm
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Re: Will the real multiple sclerosis please stand up?

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:08 pm

I never heard of that before, but from a quick research, they are suspected in neurodegeneratives disease but not MS?


perhaps depends if ms has a neurodegenerative component. not sure if the studies are conclusive yet at this stage.

Nothing about prions or proteins in this paper, JL...


yea i'm guilty of not actually having read it, just getting the gist, and was more going for thoughts on how the prion concept might possibly link up with both the neurodegenerative and immune angles. this abstract looks related/interesting, there's more abstract available at the link below.

Inflammatory Mediators Leading to Protein-Misfolding and Uncompetitive/Fast Off‐Rate Drug Therapy for Neurodegenerative Disorders
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 4207820010
Inflammatory mediators, including free radicals such as nitric oxide (NO) and reactive oxygen species (ROS), can contribute to neurodegenerative diseases in part by triggering protein misfolding. In this chapter, we will discuss a newly discovered pathway for this phenomenon and possible novel treatments. Excitotoxicity, defined as overstimulation of glutamate receptors, has been implicated in a final common pathway contributing to neuronal injury and death in a wide range of acute and chronic neurological disorders, ranging from Parkinson's disease (PD), amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), multiple sclerosis, and Alzheimer's disease (AD) to stroke and trauma. Excitotoxic cell death is due, at least in part, to excessive activation of N‐methyl‐d‐aspartate (NMDA)‐type glutamate receptors, leading to excessive Ca2+ influx through the receptor's associated ion channel and subsequent free radical production, including NO and ROS. These free radicals can trigger a variety of injurious pathways, but newly discovered evidence suggests that some proteins are S‐nitrosylated (transfer of NO to a critical thiol group), and this reaction can mimic the effect of rare genetic mutations. This posttranslational modification can contribute to proteinmisfolding, triggering neurodegenerative diseases...
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Re: Will the real multiple sclerosis please stand up?

Postby Luongo » Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:47 pm

I might not be understanding this correctly, so this question may not make sense

What, according to this new theory, does this mean for the many people who have had CIS or a single episode without any further incidents? Did the body "self cure" the underlying neurodegenerative disease?
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