Clear lumbar puncture.

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Re: Clear lumber puncture.

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:36 am

understandable :) gah i just hit one of those damned ads by accident and lost the post i had been working on grrrr

on chelation of heavy metals..

Chelation in Metal Intoxication

Chelation therapy is the preferred medical treatment for reducing the toxic effects of metals. Chelating agents are capable of binding to toxic metal ions to form complex structures which are easily excreted from the body removing them from intracellular or extracellular spaces. 2,3-Dimercaprol has long been the mainstay of chelation therapy for lead or arsenic poisoning, however its serious side effects have led researchers to develop less toxic analogues. Hydrophilic chelators like meso-2,3-dimercaptosuccinic acid effectively promote renal metal excretion, but their ability to access intracellular metals is weak. Newer strategies to address these drawbacks like combination therapy (use of structurally different chelating agents) or co-administration of antioxidants have been reported recently. In this review we provide an update of the existing chelating agents and the various strategies available for the treatment of heavy metals and metalloid intoxications.
...
Vitamins, essential metals or amino acid supplementation during chelation therapy has been found to be beneficial in increasing metal mobilization and providing recoveries in number of altered biochemical variables [204-206]. These antioxidants (vitamin C and E, α-lipoic acid etc.) when given either alone or in combination with a chelating agent proved to be effective in mobilizing metal from soft as well as hard tissue [203].

203. Flora, S.J.S.; Mittal, M.; Mehta, A. Heavy metal induced oxidative stress & its possible reversal by chelation therapy. Ind. J. Med. Res. 2008, 128, 501-523.
204. Pachauri, P.; Saxena, G.; Mehta, A.; Mishra, D.; Flora, S.J.S. Combinational chelation therapy abrogates lead induced neurodegeneration in rats. Toxicol. Appl. Pharmacol. 2009, 240, 255-265.
205. Flora, S.J.S.; Pande, M.; Mehta, A. Beneficial effect of combined administration of some naturally occurring antioxidants (vitamins) and thiol chelators in the treatment of chronic lead intoxication. Chem. Biol. Inter. 2003, 145, 267-280.
206. Pande, M.; Flora, S.J.S. Lead induced oxidative damage and its response to combined administration of α-lipoic acid and succimers in rats. Toxicology 2002, 177, 187-196.
Int. J. Environ. Res. Public Health 2010, 7 2788
207. Kannan, G.M.; Flora, S.J.S. Combined administration of n-acetyl cysteine and monoisoamyl DMSA on tissue oxidative stress during arsenic chelation therapy. Biol. Trace Elem. Res. 2006, 110, 43-59

so in terms of nutritional antioxidants, such as A, C, E and lipoic acid, that last one is the one i know the least about.

LA is negligible in food according to whfoods; here are their listed risk factors for deficient LA

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... t&dbid=117
Interestingly, because lipoic acid is found in the mitochondria (energy production units) of animal cells, individuals who eat no animal products may be at higher risk for lipoic acid deficiency than individuals who do. Vegetarians who eat no green leafy vegetables may also be at special risk, since the chloroplasts in these leaves house most of the lipoic acid...
funny, i was both those things for many years :S
Since lipoic acid protects proteins during aging, older individuals may be at greater risk of deficiency.
Similarly, because lipoic acid is used to help regulate blood sugar, individuals with diabetes may be at special risk of deficiency.
Individuals with poor protein intake, and particularly those with poor intake of the sulfur-containing amino acids (the building blocks of protein that contain sulfur, namely, methionine, cysteine, and taurine) may also be at higher risk of lipoic acid deficiency. The reason for this connection is simple: lipoic acid gets its sulfur atoms from these sulfur-containing amino acids.
Because lipoic acid is asorbed primarily through the stomach, individuals with stomach disorders (for example, hypochlorhydria, or low stomach acid) may also be at increased risk of deficiency.
more on the protein/sulfur idea to follow. also i have to refresh my memory on the stomach acid thing!

moving on, LA supplements are synthetic according to wikipedia, so i'd tend to look at mammalian biosynthesis and try to figure out how it might be impaired, then how to fix

about lipoic acid synthetase

LIAS
http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene/LIAS
The protein encoded by this gene belongs to the biotin and lipoic acid synthetases family. It localizes in mitochondrion and plays an important role in alpha-(+)-lipoic acid synthesis. It may also function in the sulfur insertion chemistry in lipoate biosynthesis.

okay looking at lias deficiency...

Lipoic Acid Synthetase Deficiency Causes Neonatal-Onset Epilepsy, Defective Mitochondrial Energy Metabolism, and Glycine Elevation
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9711004897
Lipoic acid is an essential prosthetic group of four mitochondrial enzymes involved in the oxidative decarboxylation of pyruvate, α-ketoglutarate, and branched chain amino acids and in the glycine cleavage. Lipoic acid is synthesized stepwise within mitochondria through a process that includes lipoic acid synthetase. We identified the homozygous mutation c.746G>A (p.Arg249His) in LIAS in an individual with neonatal-onset epilepsy, muscular hypotonia, lactic acidosis, and elevated glycine concentration in plasma and urine. Investigation of the mitochondrial energy metabolism showed reduced oxidation of pyruvate and decreased pyruvate dehydrogenase complex activity. A pronounced reduction of the prosthetic group lipoamide was found in lipoylated proteins.

Biogenesis of iron-sulfur clusters in mammalian cells: new insights and relevance to human disease
http://intl-dmm.biologists.org/content/5/2/155.short
Iron-sulfur (Fe-S) clusters are ubiquitous cofactors composed of iron and inorganic sulfur. They are required for the function of proteins involved in a wide range of activities, including electron transport in respiratory chain complexes, regulatory sensing, photosynthesis and DNA repair. The proteins involved in the biogenesis of Fe-S clusters are evolutionarily conserved from bacteria to humans, and many insights into the process of Fe-S cluster biogenesis have come from studies of model organisms, including bacteria, fungi and plants. It is now clear that several rare and seemingly dissimilar human diseases are attributable to defects in the basic process of Fe-S cluster biogenesis. Although these diseases –which include Friedreich’s ataxia (FRDA), ISCU myopathy, a rare form of sideroblastic anemia, an encephalomyopathy caused by dysfunction of respiratory chain complex I and multiple mitochondrial dysfunctions syndrome – affect different tissues, a feature common to many of them is that mitochondrial iron overload develops as a secondary consequence of a defect in Fe-S cluster biogenesis. This Commentary outlines the basic steps of Fe-S cluster biogenesis as they have been defined in model organisms. In addition, it draws attention to refinements of the process that might be specific to the subcellular compartmentalization of Fe-S cluster biogenesis proteins in some eukaryotes, including mammals. Finally, it outlines several important unresolved questions in the field that, once addressed, should offer important clues into how mitochondrial iron homeostasis is regulated, and how dysfunction in Fe-S cluster biogenesis can contribute to disease.

linking up to sulfur (ah, the cruciferous veggies, we're deep into dr wahls territory now hehe)

Sulfur in Human Nutrition and Applications in Medicine
http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/7/1/22.pdf
The sulfur-containing amino acids (SAAs) are methionine, cysteine, cystine, homocysteine, homocystine, and taurine.

neat links right back to risk factors for low LA. so. on to action items. this study is available in full text so i will probably have a read at some point

Effects of micronutrients on metal toxicity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1533267/
full text http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 6-0213.pdf

so the next thing is, what's your diet like by and large? would you undertake dietary/supplemental modifications to help with metal removal?

if so, could you please send me a private message (or just post here if you are comfortable) everything you eat or drink starting with everything yesterday, today, and tomorrow. as detailed as possible with serving size estimates if you can. i'm off to have my breakfast i've been an hour and a half on this one! remind me to look at pyruvate later.

oh yeah and there's a research scientist at Keele you might be able to look up, name of Ferns.
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Re: Clear lumbar puncture.

Postby Anonymoose » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:03 am

Before you get into the heavy duty heavy metal chelation that probably should be monitored by a doctor as it can deplete essential nutrients, you could start taking modified citrus pectin. It's a gentle chelator. I take it every day to detox from abx related fallout. It's the bomb!
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Re: Clear lumbar puncture.

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:41 am

i'm sorry did i come across as pro pharma for heavy metal chelation? not my intention, that would be quite far out of character..
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Re: Clear lumbar puncture.

Postby Zac » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:42 am

Wow so much info to digest lol.

I will comment once I'v ploughed through the links etc, in the mean time should I practice some kind of detox regime plus as Anonymoose suggests a little gentle chelation, can citrus pectin be bought over the counter / amazon etc ?



Regards.
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Re: Clear lumbar puncture.

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:48 am

heya, i focus on nutrition first and not so much on fibre, so up to you re citrus pectin. there are a couple of studies on it (good things to post when making assertions about their use/benefits)

Integrative Medicine and the Role of Modified Citrus Pectin/Alginates in Heavy MetIntegrative Medicine and the Role of Modified Citrus Pectin/Alginates in Heavy Metal Chelation and Detoxification – Five Case Reports
http://content.karger.com/produktedb/pr ... 0000109829
Heavy metal body burden can contribute to chronic disease, as well as interfere with the body’s capacity to recover from illness. The five case studies presented here show that reduction in toxic heavy metals (74% average decrease) was achieved without side effects, with the use of PectaSol® modified citrus pectin (MCP) (EcoNugenics; Santa Rosa, CA, USA) alone or with an MCP/alginates combination. The gradual decrease of total body heavy metal burden is believed to have played an important role in each patient’s recovery and health maintenance. This is the first known documentation of evidence of such results in a clinical report of case studies with possible correlation between clinical outcome and a reduction in toxic heavy metal load in patients using MCP and/or an MCP/alginate complex.

looks positive, but case studies are not your highest standard of research.. and the one author works for the company that makes and sells the product being tested, namely:

PectaSol-C Modified Citrus Pectin
http://www.econugenics.com/p-71-pectasol-c.aspx

detail on the nutritional takeaway points from my post above:

diet rich in vits A C E, protein and sulfur (but not heavy-metal laden foods eg larger carnivorous fish)

vitamin A 10,000 IU/d,
vitamin C 10,000 mg/d,
vitamin E8 complex 400 IU/d (must be natural source with 4 tocopherols and 4 tocotrienols - daily wheat germ and sunflower seeds are a great sources if you can't find the supplement)

outside thoughts on how to avoid heavy metal toxicity in food. i don't agree with supplementing glutathione necessarily.. it's zinc and selenium dependent so i'd often suggest ensuring good zinc and selenium status. i'd be careful in your case though!

How to Avoid Heavy Metal Toxicity
http://nourishedmagazine.com.au/blog/ar ... l-toxicity
What you Eat
1.Organic Food, especially animal foods. Many heavy metals are used in conventional agriculture and storage.
2.Fish, especially carnivorous fish at the top of the food chain should be eaten sparingly. Visit Got Mercury to find out more. Be wary of algae supplements like spirulina and chlorella: while many believe them to be detoxifiers of heavy metals, they absorb them so well, they can also be source of contamination. Oysters are the best source of easily available nutrient dense foods from the sea. Check your cod liver oil is free of mercury.
3.Eat a high fat diet. Animal fat helps the process of excretion of heavy metals. Metals are stored in the body fat of humans and excreted via the bile. Probably the worst diet for those with heavy metal toxicity is the common low fat, vegetarian style diet with fish and chicken.
4.Glutathione: supplement and include foods such as rare or raw lamb, raw milk, eggs, asparagus and avocado.
5.Check you source of meat, especially dessicated Liver supplements.
6. Supplement high doses of Vitamin C if you have heavy metal toxicity
7.Filter your water and avoid amalgam fillings and pharmaceutical drugs (especially vaccines).
8.Check your salt - while celtic is the best salt, choose the lightest colours available. Sea salt can be a source of heavy metals

more detail here http://nourishedmagazine.com.au/blog/ar ... l-toxicity
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Re: Clear lumbar puncture.

Postby Zac » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:26 am

Hiya,
After researching diets myself after being diagnosed, the general theme seems to be as close to zero fat, no dairy, no red meat no wheat etc - swank, best bet diet, raw diet etc ?

I haven't tried any diets yet or experimented with supplements as there seems to be a mine field of theories out there ?

At the moment I am receiving treatment from a Dr Amir of London ( anti big pharma ) for TJM & Atlas realignment, there has been good positive feed back from other pwms, I feel I need to explore every avenue.

Regards.
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Re: Clear lumbar puncture.

Postby Anonymoose » Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:32 am

Zac wrote:Wow so much info to digest lol.

I will comment once I'v ploughed through the links etc, in the mean time should I practice some kind of detox regime plus as Anonymoose suggests a little gentle chelation, can citrus pectin be bought over the counter / amazon etc ?



Regards.


I use Now brand, 800mg capsules. I have ordered it on amazon but my last order is being delivered extremely slowly (like weeks past due). I had to find a local retailer that carries it through the Now brands website. Just enter your zip in the store search on this page.
http://www.nowfoods.com/Supplements/Pro ... 100921.htm. It isn't cheap so if you can land it on sale or have a coupon, you'll be much more fond of it. :p

Here is another link about mcp chelation. There is a lot out there about mcp and chelation if you care to google.
http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/28484/PDF.

Jimmylegs, I didn't mean to imply you would send him off for chelation. It just seems like something someone with possible heavy metal loads might jump into when experiencing frightening symptoms. Thanks for posting the Mcp info for me. I was too busy to do it yesterday and I'm a bit googled out for some strange reason. Lol
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Re: Clear lumbar puncture.

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:20 am

you're right about a mine field!

i actually think a lot of the diets are scary. for me having been diagnosed AFTER years of a low fat diet, with no red meat or any meat period, no dairy, no eggs, etc - the food elimination idea really rubbed me the wrong way.

i think diets paint everyone with the same brush, same as the diagnostic models. when it came to diagnosis, i knew i was not 'average joe' so i didn't know why i should believe that my dx was correct. esp given the doc's computer glitches and the ms clinic's lack of regard for my nutritional concerns as a long term vegan. by the same token i did not want to be painted with the same brush for dietary recommendations.

many ms diets suggest avoiding eggs (among other things) as *potential* allergens .. why correct a faulty immune system, right? 7:| one of the only dietary changes i undertook as part of a published ms protocol was 'a high protein diet, including 2-3 eggs for breakfast'.

that very old protocol helped me a LOT. i actually got much better by ADDING animal products in general, including the protein, fat, and various nutrients. some of what i've done was pretty shotgun but in most instances i have done reading in the literature, then had selected testing done, developed a regimen, and conducted follow up testing to assess the regimen.

in your case zac, you also have a personal history that does not match the usual folks that go into building a statistical model used to diagnose ms patients. but you can use your own background to inform wise dietary choices that will help you avoid adding to your heavy metal burden. healthy organic whole unprocessed foods are great for everyone :)
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Re: Clear lumbar puncture.

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:24 am

anon, yes you have been quite the busy googler :) i still think, personally, that nutrient (and in this case, toxin) assessments need to be part of the first line, whether modified pectin is in the regimen first too, or comes later.
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Re: Clear lumbar puncture.

Postby Zac » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:04 am

Yes Jimmy totally agree with your assumption of my situation, my neuro doesn't seem to think changing diet would make any difference " remarking" drinking yourself silly would not be a problem ??

I used to body build ( drug free ) for 20yrs so know how sticking to a bland diet although healthy for the right end results is worth the sacrifices, 40% protein, 35% carbs & 25% fats ( when bulking ) would give me the energy & muscle building nutrition I needed, thought of revisiting my old dietary habits ?

Regards,

Zac.
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Re: Clear lumbar puncture.

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:35 am

oh. my. god. what a doc you have.

can you send me a three day food/fluid diary by any chance? two days you'd consider standard, and one 'day off' or 'cheat' day? or even two. i can look for issues in your status quo diet recently, and provide you with a heads-up, if needed, of any potential red flags in your proposed return to the body building regimen (i'm thinking of carb loading foods, wheat in particular). and i don't think you'll need to worry about your diet needing to be bland :)
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Re: Clear lumbar puncture.

Postby Zac » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:10 pm

Hi Jimmy,
Sorry for my delay in replying, call me thick but do you mean my present diet or my former bb diet or both ?
Bear in mind I was consuming 10000 calories per day to maintain my then 250lb so would have to modify some what :lol:

Regards.
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Re: Clear lumbar puncture.

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:01 pm

i was unclear, sorry! both if you can :) actually i think i'm asking for three things.

1) what you used to eat, even at 10K calories per day, less specific but at least the foods you often ate a meals and snacks, then
2) what you've been eating more recently, in detail if possible, and lastly
3) what changes you propose going forward (doesn't have to be too in-depth).

sound doable? lots of info to ask for i know :S
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Re: Clear lumbar puncture.

Postby Zac » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:03 pm

Yeh no problem I'll get right on to it.
I also recently had a CCSVI consultation & scan which turned out normal so was ruled non compatible for the procedure, they did say I seemed to be out of symitary though hence the jaw & atlas route ?

Regards.
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Re: Clear lumbar puncture.

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:20 pm

okay good. i don't know much about CCSVI or atlas realignment though.
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