Clear lumbar puncture.

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Clear lumbar puncture.

Postby Zac » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:42 am

Hi,
I have recently had results from the only lumber puncture I'v had which was clear ?
My neurologist said its unusual but still "thinks" I have MS, is this common amongst pwms.
Zac
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Re: Clear lumber puncture.

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:14 am

it is statistically less likely for someone with ms to have a clear lumbar puncture. what they are looking for are markers of chronic inflammation. not having them is good news :) what are your symptoms?
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Re: Clear lumber puncture.

Postby Zac » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:56 pm

Hi Jimmyleggs,
I was initially diagnosed with carpal tunnel syndrome due to my right hand dexterity failing & weakness which was dismissed after I had an MRI which showed a bright spot on the left hemisphere.
I was put on Tysabri which only made me feel worse, I was told after 12mths that I was now JCV positive so came off Tysabri.

My symptoms have increased to right arm and leg plus fatigue, since coming off Tysabri my fatigue has reduced some.

Prior to any symptoms I had a cycling accident where my head ( left side)was smashed to the ground & my left clavicle was detached from my shoulder, I recovered but have not been the same since, all physical investigations have proved normal ?No neuros etc will consider my accident relates to my condition.

I worked for the same company for 26 yrs which I have now been pensioned off from due to my inability to fulfil any roll.

After recently having a LP which was clear my neuro "thinks" I still have MS but will not commit 100% even though my most recent MRI showed all had calmed down, I am on no medication at the moment.
All this has happened inside 2yrs ??

Regards.
Zac
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Re: Clear lumber puncture.

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:59 pm

oh man my whole dx was right after a major snowboarding crash. where are you do you have good access to bloodwork and such? i could suggest some tests that are not in the mainstream docs' repertoire..
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Re: Clear lumber puncture.

Postby Zac » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:15 am

Hi,
I'm from Staffordshire, England.

I have a good GP who is open minded and will honour requests for various tests within reason, I am just waiting for blood results for Lymes (Elisa test), I'v had quite a few tick bites over the years ?

I'd be interested and appreciate any other tests you could suggest though.

Regards.
Zac
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Re: Clear lumber puncture.

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:24 pm

good call on the lyme test. i have a writeup about the bloodwork required and target levels for each here:
regimens-f22/topic2489.html#p15460
the list of targets is basically in what i view as order of importance. not exactly, but close enough.
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Re: Clear lumber puncture.

Postby Zac » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:36 pm

Thanks for your reply and info.
Question:- I worked with precious metals for 26 yrs, casting in a small foundry fine gold mixed with copper, zinc, silver plus many other elements to make the composition / carat we required.
Two years prior to any symptoms the company I worked for introduced a new alloy which was silver, zinc, copper, magnesium & lithium, all elements were melted together at a temperature of 1120 O'c then the lithium was added last, fume would rise as it was stirred into the molten metal it would make me light headed, only two operatives cast this alloy, myself and another guy who also left the business due to ill health - do you think there could be a connection, maybe toxicity crossing my BBB ?
I had bloods taken & tested by the company for lithium but was told the levels were at an acceptable level..
The only protection we were provided with apart from flame resistant overalls and boots was paper face masks? The machine & alloy has since gone..
Any ideas whether lithium / neurotoxicity can leave harmful symptoms ?

Regards.
Zac
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Re: Clear lumber puncture.

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:49 pm

WOWWWW metal fumes just wow. what kind of ventilation, was there an extractor hood?

were they following this guide or something similar? http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/guidance/fd2.pdf

scratching the surface of foundry fume health research:

Clearing the Air in Foundries
Diether, J W
Safety and Health. Vol. 160, no. 5, pp. 54-58. Nov. 1999

Foundries are one environment where the potential for hazardous airborne exposure is great. Without intervention, silica dust and fumes from various molten metals, such as lead, nickel and chromium, can cause serious health problems. The disease most closely linked to prolonged exposure to airborne respirable silica is silicosis. This irreversible condition results when fine dust particles are lodged in the alveoli, or outer branches of the lungs. Scar tissue forms around silica particles and reduces the functional volume of the lung, which in turn leads to fatigue, shortness of breath and chest pain. Silicosis can be fatal if it seriously impairs respiratory function. Excessive silica inhalation also is associated with respiratory diseases, including an increased susceptibility to tuberculosis. According to the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, silica is a carcinogen and excessive exposure can increase the risk of lung cancer. Heart problems and pulmonary hypertension also may occur. Exposure to uncontrolled metal fumes produces varying physical symptoms, depending on the composition of the alloy. Lead exposure, for example, causes severe gastrointestinal disturbance and anemia. It also can lead to kidney and neurologic disorders. Chromium and nickel can be corrosive and carcinogenic to the upper respiratory system and lungs. Although inhalation hazards cannot be eliminated, exposure to them can be minimized using two universal hazard control principles: ventilation and isolation techniques.

Sequelae of fume exposure in confined space welding: A neurological and neuropsychological case series
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 3X06002907
Welding fume contains manganese (Mn) which is known to be bio-available to and neurotoxic for the central nervous system. Although an essential metal, Mn overexposure may cause manganism, a parkinsonian syndrome. The present welder study sought to improve the clinical portrait of manganism and to determine dose–effect relationships. The welders were employed in the construction of the new Bay Bridge (San Francisco) and welded in confined spaces for up to 2 years with minimal protection and poor ventilation. Neurological, neuropsychological, neurophysiological, and pulmonary examinations were given to 49 welders. Clinical cases were selected on the basis of apriori defined criteria pertaining to welding history and neurological/neuropsychological features. Among the 43 eligible welders, 11 cases of manganism were identified presenting with the following symptoms: sleep disturbance, mood changes, bradykinesia, headaches, sexual dysfunction, olfaction loss, muscular rigidity, tremors, hallucinations, slurred speech, postural instability, monotonous voice, and facial masking. Significant associations between outcome variables and cumulative exposure index (CEI) or blood Mn (MnB) were obtained with CEI for variables implicating attention and concentration, working and immediate memory, cognitive flexibility, and verbal learning; and with MnB for executive function, cognitive flexibility, visuo-spatial construction ability, and visual contrast sensitivity. This study strongly suggests that neuropsychological features contribute in a dose–effect related way to the portrait of manganism usually characterized by tremor, loss in balance, diminished cognitive performance, and signs and symptoms of parkinsonism.

Heavy metal poisoning and its laboratory investigation
http://asquifyde.es/uploads/documentos/ ... n-1999.pdf
Metals with small atomic radii often have important cellular functions which depend on the formation of their preferred co-ordination complexes with oxygen or nitrogen ligands of comparable size; for example, to control the quaternary arrangement in structural or catalytic domains of proteins (e.g., zinc and copper in superoxide dismutase), and in the transport of amino acids with sodium and of electrons by iron and copper in cytochrome c oxidase. Light toxic metals (e.g., lithium and aluminium) may compete with or replace the metals they resemble.

apparently there's a lithium-sodium size match. so although i wouldn't normally suggest a sodium test for an ms patient, you might want to have that piece of info in addition to the rest. i think the zinc test just leapt to the forefront also. when the zinc goes into the metal, what form is it in? how does it complex with the rest of the alloy? it will help me zero in on the right research. hopefully ;)

do you have your lithium results on file? good to have your own copies of all tests.
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Re: Clear lumber puncture.

Postby Zac » Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:50 pm

Hey Jimmy fantastic info seems you really know where to look !!

I was the team leader of the shop so was responsible for making sure all procedures and functions were as they should be, we would work to the specifications written in the COSCH & individual machine risk assessment guide lines, lip and hood extraction was in place but would fail to cope with the fumes on occasion, when casting alloys containing a high temperature melt point element eg copper and a low temperature melt point element eg zinc, you would invariably create heavy burn off from the zinc until the copper melted and homogenised together.

I assumed as all other operatives did the guide lines we followed were approved & safe, no fresh air was ever pumped in to replace extracted fume / air.
We would cast recycled scrap but initially this would start from new elements, all would be 100% pure, then the composition was mixed & melted in order to homogenise to create the desired alloy.

The lithium came in sticks which were plunged into molten silver this addition was added with the idea it would create tarnish free silver products, the alloy wasn't a success.

I do not have any copies of lithium results taken by the company, just a verbal conversation to report I was within an acceptable figure, I can request them if required though, I had a "mineral" check which threw up that I had a high zinc level, this hair strand test was carried out on the 9th of May 2012, I last worked in April 2011 ?

Hope this helps, regards.
Zac
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Re: Clear lumber puncture.

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:16 pm

haha, my trade secret for searching is my dear old friend 'google scholar' :D really helps weed out irrelevant results

all right so re processe, good stuff to know .. think you should have had a respirator on maybe.. are there any online procedures you know of, detailing the kinds of processes you describe? i have questions like what form would the zinc be in when you would receive a shipment at the foundry? like is it just a hunk of pure elemental zinc?? clearly not a metallurgist, although i did recently see someone play one on tv.. ;) if i can see the chemistry that occurs as things heat up and become fumes i can research the health impacts with better accuracy.

for the time being, if you can request your own copies of all those mineral levels incl. lithium, and then can arrange for some current tests including lithium and sodium and all the rest of the original mineral check panel, PLUS the other bloodwork i'd normally be looking at for ms, that would be two GREAT sets of info to have

something to read http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/heavy-metal-poisoning
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Re: Clear lumber puncture.

Postby Zac » Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:32 pm

Can't say how great full I am for all your efforts, :-D

I will request blood results from my ex employer plus the others you've suggested.

Zinc came to the factory in 20Kg bags containing a type of rough grain, in this form it is easier to weigh out which you need to be able to do accurately, zinc would be sandwiched between other elements prior to melting to help reduce burn off, once heat is introduced through the graphite crucible which is covered with a heat retardant lid which the extraction mouth sits above, the first sign of fume is always the zinc, as the temperature climbs silver grain will melt next into the already molten zinc, then the fine gold then the copper which will all be manually stirred with a carbon graphite rod, all through the process fume is discharged, if casting for a while fume constantly escapes - smoke & cob web like whisps that float around, this will last until molten metal is cast into a solid product.

There are hundreds of different compositions for the various alloys I cast, the above is just an example.

I'm sure there are written procedures explaining the process of casting precious metals on line in more detail, I have never had to look already having the knowledge to physically carry this out.

Regards.
Zac
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Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 12:08 am

Re: Clear lumber puncture.

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:26 pm

ah cool so it's high purity elemental zinc. and the fumes when it burns are zinc oxide. burning. oxidation. i'm getting there lol
it was confusing to me b/c i'm used to talking about oxides and such as solid or powder tablet forms, taken as supplements.

check this out
Metal Exposure and Common Chronic Diseases: A Guide for the Clinician
https://www.uic.edu/depts/ovcr/iesp/Pub ... seases.pdf

this resource looks really good too

toxicity, heavy metals
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/814960-overview
same paper, pdf version:
http://www.naturalrussia.com/pdfs/Toxin ... metals.pdf
Pathophysiology: The pathophysiology of the heavy metal toxidromes remains relatively constant. For the most part, heavy metals bind to oxygen, nitrogen, and sulfhydryl groups in proteins, resulting in alterations of enzymatic activity. This affinity of metal species for sulfhydryl groups serves a protective role in heavy metal homeostasis as well. Increased synthesis of metal binding proteins in response to elevated levels of a number of metals is the body´s primary defense against poisoning. For example, the metalloproteins are induced by many metals. These molecules are rich in thiol ligands, which allow high-affinity binding with cadmium, copper, silver, and zinc among other elements. Other proteins involved in both heavy metal transport and excretion through the formation of ligands are ferritin, transferrin, albumin, and hemoglobin.
Although ligand formation is the basis for much of the transport of heavy metals throughout the body, some metals may compete with ionized species such as calcium and zinc to move through membrane channels in the free ionic form. For example, lead follows calcium pathways in the body, hence, its deposition in bone and gingivae. Nearly all organ systems are involved in heavy metal toxicity; however, the most commonly involved organ systems include the CNS, PNS, GI, hematopoietic, renal, and cardiovascular (CV). To a lesser extent, lead toxicity involves the musculoskeletal and reproductive systems. The organ systems affected and the severity of the toxicity vary with the particular heavy metal involved, the age of the individual, and the level of toxicity.
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Re: Clear lumber puncture.

Postby Zac » Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:35 pm

Thanks Jimmy,

Is there a name for a specialist who deals with checking you out for metals etc that should not be present, maybe I can track one down her in the UK.

I'v read that bloods can give a clear reading although the body can store toxins etc in soft tissue, is there any truth in this ?

Regards.
Zac
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Re: Clear lumber puncture.

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:09 pm

no worries. i don't know what the specialist might be called :S just researching relevant science. like this:

Selenium in the treatment of heavy metal poisoning and chemical carcinogenesis.
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/13042 ... AQ3Rano.10
Selenium (Se) has been shown to counteract the toxicity of heavy metals such as cadmium, inorganic mercury, methylmercury, thallium and to a limited extent silver. Although not as effective as Se, vitamin E significantly alters methylmercury toxicity and is more effective than Se against silver toxicity. Vitamin E is very effective against lead toxicity but Se has little effect. The presumed protective effect of Se against cadmium and mercury toxicity is through the diversion in their binding from low molecular weight proteins to higher molecular weight ones. Se appears effective in counteracting the chemical carcinogens (3-methyl-4-dimethyl-aminoazobenzene, 2-acetylaminofluorene, diethylnitrosamine, aflatoxin, 7,12-dimethylben (a) anthracene, benzopyrene and 3-methylcholanthrene) used to induce skin, liver and mammary tumors, but much less effective against those (dimethylhydrazine, azoxymethane, methylazoxymethanol, bis (2-oxopropyl) nitrosamine, benzopyrene, 1 methyl-1-nitrosourea and n-methyl-n-nitro-nitrosoguanidine) used to produce tumors in the colon, lungs, trachea and pancreas in laboratory animals. In contrast, Se many even increase pancreatic carcinomas in animals treated with bis (2-oxopropyl) nitrosamine. The health implications in humans of Se and heavy metal toxicities and in cancer are discussed.

there's a wealth of work out there to draw on. if you can get a plain old family doc to order the new tests, we can start there. also would there be any health care connections with your old place of work that could point you in the right direction for a specialist?

the body storing metals in soft tissue is plain old bioaccumulation like what happens with fish and mercury, but what i don't know is if you can have soft tissue full of mercury and low serum levels. i have a look around, see what i can find.
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Re: Clear lumber puncture.

Postby Zac » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:33 am

Thanks again Jimmy,

I'm so pleased I'v now got you helping me out :-D whatever the out come I know if my post employers get a sniff that I am looking at what the possible effects of years consuming toxins through their " negligence" they will become very guarded..

I have always had a good relationship with them and continue to do so, in fact they can't do enough for me, they fast tracked a full pension which was topped up as it would stand if I'd worked until I was 65 ?
There is small print stipulating the deal can be pulled at any time ?

I don't want to rock the boat for the sake of my wife and children, I am not really pursuing compensation just the right medication for the cause of my condition (flushed out ?) - if there is one to help me get back to even half the man I was ?

Regards.
Zac
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