High protein diet and Uric acid - just a shot in the dark?

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High protein diet and Uric acid - just a shot in the dark?

Postby CaveMan » Thu May 09, 2013 11:32 pm

Knowing that MS & Gout are mutually exclusive, and Uric acid levels are the key association seen.
Has anyone ever tried a high protein diet to raise levels of Uric acid?
Anyone done anything in the vicinity and noticed anything, good or bad?
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.
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Re: High protein diet and Uric acid - just a shot in the dar

Postby mrbarlow » Fri May 10, 2013 4:49 am

I take 500mg of Inosine as part of a general regimen. If I feel symptomy I take 1000mg. 2.5 years down the track no relapses and reasonably well.

Taking a supplement probably cheaper and healthier than high protein diet to achieve high UA status.
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Re: High protein diet and Uric acid - just a shot in the dar

Postby CureOrBust » Fri May 10, 2013 6:20 am

I take 2g of inosine daily in two doses, and monitor my uric acid levels. They are over the recommended range now, but I have had no symptoms of gout. My first blood test after my diagnosis showed below the recommended range, so if it does cause an issue, I think if I stop taking inosine, it will quickly resolve itself.

I think I notice when I miss an inosine dose for a few days.

A while back I was taking WPI (whey protein isolate, from Soy not milk) supplement with exercise. I noticed that my muscles were built a little better, but I think my MS symptoms were worse when I took it, and improved when I stopped.

I also have a copy of a study done in Serbia on the effects of Inosine supplementation in MS patients. It reduced the relapse rates.
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Re: High protein diet and Uric acid - just a shot in the dar

Postby jimmylegs » Fri May 10, 2013 9:48 am

cave you know what i will have to say on this right? if not, i had zero success using high protein, nominally gout-inducing foods (oh the homemade liver wurst i have been through) to budge my uric acid levels. had to fix the zinc deficiency, that finally kicked things into gear.
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Re: High protein diet and Uric acid - just a shot in the dar

Postby jimmylegs » Fri May 10, 2013 9:50 am

oh and in retrospect i found it extremely interesting that the klenner protocol involves a mysterious liver factor - i can't remember the exact language, will have to look up and relay
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Re: High protein diet and Uric acid - just a shot in the dar

Postby lovebug » Fri May 10, 2013 7:38 pm

Well folks I definately have both problems. MS and Gout!
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Re: High protein diet and Uric acid - just a shot in the dar

Postby jimmylegs » Sat May 11, 2013 4:43 am

a very unusual situation. although technically I managed to approach it in the last year. I have my ms diagnosis, and developed foot pain which I eventually linked to high dietary oxalic acid (my greens plus a short term infusion of rhubarb). I can do my regular dietary swiss chard, but that takes me up to the edge and if rhubarb makes a regular appearance, it's too much. that's when I bust the stats :)
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Re: High protein diet and Uric acid - just a shot in the dar

Postby CaveMan » Sat May 11, 2013 6:25 pm

Interesting thanks,
I had a look at Inosine, as I understand it, it's an Amino Acid precursor, commonly found in animal products, but esspecially higher in organ meats like liver & heart.
So although there is a strong inverse corrolation between gout and MS, there are still exceptions, and High Oxalic intake may still induce gout like symptoms, this then suggests, as JL is indicating, that the Uric Acid levels are a symptomatic effect of deeper underlying deficiencies, i.e. Zinc et al.

JL, "klenner protocol involves a mysterious liver factor", I wonder if that might be K2, that was one identified by Weston A Price in his research, grass fed butter and organ meats seemed to be one of the strong associations he found in his search wit regard to health and in particular dental health.

So although a high protein diet may elevate urea, this may not be enough to mediate MS symptoms unless organ meats form a significant part of that dietary intake, particularly considering they are also rich in a variety of Vitamins & Minerals.
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.
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Re: High protein diet and Uric acid - just a shot in the dar

Postby jimmylegs » Sat May 11, 2013 7:12 pm

yesyesyesyesyes.
relevant section of klenner protocol:
http://www.townsendletter.com/Klenner/klenner4.htm
"Crude liver: This substance contains factors still unknown but essential in metabolism. Patients with pernicious anemia often show neurological involvement, and are tremendously benefited by liver injections which, of course, contain vitamin B12. Degenerative changes brought on by other factors, therefore, can also be benefited by daily injections of crude liver."

SURPRISE! i think it's largely the zinc. consider: what is your best bet for dietary zinc.. veal liver. zinc also affects b12 absorption/retention, incidentally. same with vit d3. zinc also enhances action of K2.
Effect of vitamin K2 (menaquinone-7) on bone metabolism in the femoral-metaphyseal tissues of normal and skeletal-unloaded rats: enhancement with zinc
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02576839

what happened to me was a high protein diet without any capacity to handle it properly. with high dietary protein and a broken urea cycle, the uric acid won't rise and that means that ammonia is skyrocketing instead.

extreme example of zinc deficiency leading to broken urea cycle
ZINC DEFICIENCY CAUSING HYPERAMMONEMIA AND ENCEPHALOPATHY...
http://journal.publications.chestnet.or ... id=1095755
"During the course of her evaluation she was found to have an ammonia level of 437 umol/L. [JL: 'normal' ammonia levels are 21-50 umol/L] ... Electroencephalogram revealed generalized slowing. Zinc deficiency was also considered amongst other etiologies of hyperammonemia. The zinc level was found to be 50 mg/dl. [JL: or 7.56 umol/L]"

i fixed my zinc status before realizing the ammonia aspect, so no ammonia tests on file. all i can say is that my subjective experience of cognitive disability was at its absolute worst right before i realized i was zinc deficient and fixed it.
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Re: High protein diet and Uric acid - just a shot in the dar

Postby CureOrBust » Sat May 11, 2013 7:19 pm

lovebug wrote:Well folks I definitely have both problems. MS and Gout!
Which came first? My guess is the MS, followed by the gout? The study that showed the relationship between MS and Gout did have some crossover, just very very small percentage wise.

CaveMan wrote:So although there is a strong inverse correlation between gout and MS, there are still exceptions, and High Oxalic intake may still induce gout like symptoms, this then suggests, as JL is indicating, that the Uric Acid levels are a symptomatic effect of deeper underlying deficiencies, i.e. Zinc et al.
My view (as I have not seen any research indicating why uric acid is low in MS) is that uric acid is consumed by the effects of the body's reaction to the disease; and hence its low. I am not saying that taking other supplements will not increase uric acid.
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Re: High protein diet and Uric acid - just a shot in the dar

Postby jimmylegs » Sat May 11, 2013 7:59 pm

transferring that logic to other scenarios, we could assert that not having seen research indicating why bones are deformed in rickets, that vitamin d3 is therefore low in rickets because the body uses more in reaction to the disease.

fact 1: uric acid is low in ms.
fact 2: zinc is low in ms.
fact 3: low zinc means low uric acid.

to me it's just Occam's razor, and connecting the dots.
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Re: High protein diet and Uric acid - just a shot in the dar

Postby CureOrBust » Sat May 11, 2013 8:22 pm

jimmylegs wrote:transferring that logic to other scenarios, we could assert that not having seen research indicating why bones are deformed in rickets, that vitamin d3 is therefore low in rickets because the body uses more in reaction to the disease.

fact 1: uric acid is low in ms.
fact 2: zinc is low in ms.
fact 3: low zinc means low uric acid.

to me it's just Occam's razor, and connecting the dots.
We are all different. In my case.
fact 1: uric acid is low
fact 2: my zinc is NOT low
fact 3: more than one vitamin/mineral/food-stuff/medical condition is a possible cause for low uric acid. and hence I said if the zinc did not work at raising her uric acid.

Do not forget the well known saying by Einstein:
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler
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Re: High protein diet and Uric acid - just a shot in the dar

Postby jimmylegs » Sat May 11, 2013 8:44 pm

heya, may I ask your zinc level? via pm if you don't care to share out here.

other nutrient deficiencies that can result in low uric acid include ferritin and molybdenum.

iron deficiency anemia is not a standard factor in ms. in fact the iron dysregulation that does exist in ms can be linked to poor zinc status.

any studies I can find that attempt to link molybdenum and ms are looking at it as a toxicity factor not deficiency.
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Re: High protein diet and Uric acid - just a shot in the dar

Postby lovebug » Sun May 12, 2013 7:09 am

My Gout started 4 yrs. before my diagnosis of MS. The MS came on sharp and fiercely all in one day. I found myself riding my horse one day to being wheeled into have an MRI done in under one week. My symptoms of numbness and pins and needles feeling was getting worse as the hours and days went by. I had noooooo history of health problems that anybody could make the connection to possibly having MS. Nothing!!!
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Re: High protein diet and Uric acid - just a shot in the dar

Postby CureOrBust » Sun May 12, 2013 5:45 pm

OOuch!

I never really thought about having a "history" of ms indicating conditions, but I more so look back on my previous issues as MS peeping its head out in the early stages.

No known family history
EBV at age 15. Cleared up REALLY quickly. Dr said it would take 2 weeks, mine was gone less than a week (after diagnosis I guess, so maybe nearly a previous week of simply just swollen glands).
Bells-Palsy at around 25 (an infection driven specific attack of peripheral nerves in the face)
My first MS symptoms around 27-29 with diagnosis of CIDP (chronic relapsing Peripheral nerve damage, ie Chronic Inflammatory Demylinating Polyneuropathy)

In hindsight, someone would say they were all connected.

While you had Gout only, were you doing anything to try to lower your uric acid levels? (PS: just so I wont be misunderstood, I do not think in the least that uric acid is a be all and end all for MS)

Did you manage to keep them in normal range? or were they always still high?
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