Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:14 pm

AH HAHAHAHA!! poor kid :S lol
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby Anonymoose » Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:28 am

Moving in the right direction...mostly. :P Just posting because Jimmylegs gets all aflutter about labs.

Zinc 101
Copper 82
Ceruloplasmin 19.6 range 16-45 (must have been low along with copper)
Vit d 27.3 (thought that would be going up...bummer)
Iron 48
Ferritin 21 (down??)
Calcium 9.3 (down a bit from last time)
Potassium 4.9 range 3.5-5.2
Kidneys and liver appear to be fine.

So...I'm thinking I will do the extra 2mg copper every other day (some in daily multi) cuz it seems like it might be competing with iron too much. I'll also stop the zinc/copper combo so my ratio doesn't get further out of whack. Did I mention being able to order labs online is like the best thing since chocolate?
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:45 pm

lookin good :) note that when taking iron and zinc together that they do both rise more slowly than if taken individually at the risk of the other. so, I think the every other day approach is good. you already separate iron and zinc timewise yes? have you tried iron one day zinc the next?
i don't really think you have to watch the daily copper aspect, but for sure watch the timing.

what else... oh i was going to track down a study for you, but it will have to be later. it's an older one, re daily variation in serum ferritin. i was wondering if you are in the habit of getting your blood drawn at a specific time of day, and whether you do them 'fasting' or not?
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby Anonymoose » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:17 pm

Thanks jimmy. :)

I'm finding conflicting stuff on copper inhibiting iron absorption...so I'm baffled on that front. I'm just spacing them out for now. I took a break from Friday to Monday because something was off and I didn't know what it was...worried copper or iron went too high. As of now I feel like I still need the daily extra copper (and iron). I was worried about zinc going down too with all that copper but maybe the zinc/copper combo should be the every other day thing. I think the off thing was my multi isn't strong enough on the bs as taking b100 makes everything hunky dory. Complicated this is. :crazy: We really need a yoda smiley.

I always test between 8-8:30am fasting. I haven't been doing any washouts before testing lately though...don't have the margins to go without supplementing for a whole week.

You'll be pleased to know I added pastured chicken to my diet (can't eat anything with four legs yet lol)...and then tossed and turned all night worrying about getting salmonella due to my total loss of meat cooking knowledge and my B cell situation. Another ruined vegan. :(
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:31 pm

yeah with all that stuff it's a matter of finding the sweet spot. spacing things out is wise.

and yea based on those tests it's all still pretty low :S you'll get there eventually! maybe try a gram of vit C when you take iron, see what that does for your absorption.

bahaha yoda smiley for sure :mrgreen:

good plan re morning fasting tests.

glad to hear about the murder. i'm not alone, whew ;)
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby Anonymoose » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:34 am

I've been taking iron with a cup of oj so there's a bit of vitamin c there. I'm worried about massive doses of vitamin c interfering with copper absorption. But then maybe the copper is oxidizing all of my vitamin c so I need extra vitamin c anyway. :confused:

I'll give the 1000mg a shot today and see what happens. Knowing me, something amazingly good or bad will happen. Good times. :roll:

Thanks!
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:40 am

if you get up to 10-20g of vit c a day then you can worry about copper.

just doing some half ass mental math on this study, looks like the normal dose group got the equivalent of 350mg, and the high dose group got the equivalent of 350 x 50 so... 17500mg or 17.5g
I could be wrong. b/c I am only having my first sips of coffee.. :S

Effect of vitamin C on copper and iron metabolism in the ...
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/74297 ... Pa6hlRU.12

think you'll be ok with 1g - even though you are not LITERALLY a guinea pig ;D

for comparison I checked how much vit c in 1c of oj - looks like 124 mg
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby Anonymoose » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:28 am

Huh...I didn't bother to apply even one cheek to the math. Lol. Good thing you did. Seems like a non issue...and nothing amazing has occurred. Whoopee! Boring is a little refreshing. :)

Must admit I struggled a bit with the denial of me literally being a guinea pig. I actually thought I was. Time to take a break from experimenting methinks!
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:54 pm

glad you didn't have any c related upheaval :) don't let that pesky figurative pig get to ya :D

hope the latest regimen that will cause you no grief!
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby Anonymoose » Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:37 pm

New labs...
Iron 44
Ferritin 29
Copper 92
Ceruloplasmin 20.9 (20 is the low end cut off in medical documents...not my lab norms)
Zinc 107
Mag rbc 5.0 ouch...washing down 400mg as I type...

I need to work on that mag and can back off the copper and iron a bit, I think. I haven't taken copper since Friday (lab day) and hand numbness is better. Don't know why as everything seems okay with zinc/copper ratio and ceruloplasmin is higher. Any ideas, jimmy? (I know you are busy...no rush!). Think just counting on diet and multi for copper and zinc (3.8 zinc, 1.5 copper) will slowly bring the levels up? A bunch of case studies claim supplementing copper at 2-3mg/day works. Kind of at a loss! Zinc, iron, and copper are probably reading high because of the no wash out factor. Maybe I should just play around until I find max tolerated doses? Now we need a smiley that flubs his bottom lip and drools.

Edit: Could the problem be free copper? I had 29% copper unbound to ceruloplasmin. (Cu-(CP*3.15))/Cu. It's supposed to be less than 5%. There are other copper binding proteins so I probably didn't have quite so much free copper. This could get interesting...
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:19 pm

heya :)

although they are getting better all the time, i don't think your mineral results sound that high.. the trend for ferritin copper and zinc looks good across the board.. at this rate soon you will make it to ferritin 80, copper 110, and zinc 120.. i would say when you get there, then see if you can maintain with diet.

i don't know what to say about hand numbness. mine is permanent and the only change that i could connect to a specific event or action of mine, was when i landed on my head in that huge crash!

what are you aiming for wrt RBC mag again? do you remember where you got your target from? i'm hunting around and not finding anything i like very quickly!

okay back to the books i go :)
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby THX1138 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:39 pm

what are you aiming for wrt RBC mag again? do you remember where you got your target from? i'm hunting around and not finding anything i like very quickly!

You can assess your magnesium status with a blood test called Magnesium RBC (red blood cell). This test is available to the public (without a doctor’s script) through Request A Test. But the kicker is that the range for this test is taken from the sick population so you want to be an optimum of 6.0-6.5mg/dL in a range of 4.2-6.8mg/dL. Do not let anyone tell you that a level of 4.4mg/dL is normal.

http://www.newswithviews.com/Dean/carolyn107.htm


Magnesium—The Missing Link to Better Health
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/12/08/magnesium-health-benefits.aspx
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby Anonymoose » Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:42 pm

Thanks jimmy and thx. :) I couldn't find the usual Jimmylegs type source for rbc mag. What I can find seems pretty comparable to the filter you would apply to serum mag norms though.

The hand numbness I'm talking about now isn't my ms numbness. It's tied up in all of these imbalances and goes away entirely at times (especially mornings if that is of any significance). Hopefully there won't be any lasting damage there. I've been reading about copper and iron accumulation in the liver and elsewhere when your ceruloplasmin levels are low so I'm paranoid about those supplements (hence the bi-weekly blood draws...hehe of course you won't see me going in for a liver sample :P).

I can't find any stats on how quickly ceruloplasmin is supposed to rise with copper supplementation. You don't have those lurking around you someplace, do ya jimmy? Also, what deficiencies might be most likely to contribute to adrenal insufficiency as that can slow ceruloplasmin production? Again, no rush!!

It's funny how my copper and zinc have pretty much gone back to ratio. The body must manage that pretty well when resources are available. It's also funny that my d can stay the same or go up even when I'm being totally remiss with supplementing it and my calcitriol levels are higher than usual for an mser. There's something missing in the science there. I'm hoping in a month and a half the copper-zinc-iron will be good again and I can start focusing on d and mag. Who knew I'd get to ride such a nutrient roller coaster?! So thankful that we caught things early so they didn't get ugly. :)

Off to swallow some more giant mag pills...
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby Anonymoose » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:25 am

A new puzzle for ya Jimmylegs. :crazy:

Mid last week started getting some weird sensory stuff. Was taking 50mg iron with 500mg vitamin c 2x/day, 2 mg copper, a multi, and 400mg mag. Stopped copper and multi and felt better. Tried multi with a bit of copper in it, issues came back. Got lazy and just took iron and c and felt pretty normal. Days later different sensory things popped up. Hand burning all the time...even when not using them. Tried a new multi (standard doses with subpar forms) with no copper or iron. Didn't work. Tried b complex. Didn't work. Tried sublingual b-12. Didn't work. Tried zinc. Made things worse. Tried mag. Didn't work. Tried flaxseed oil and EPA/dha. Worked (finally...that was just yesterday). Oh and to further muck things up, I'm pretty sure my B cells must be starting to come back about now.

Had labs done Monday. Don't know how to work with them if copper and zinc make me worse. Any ideas? I know I need to up the mag...and uh...take it. Lol. I feel good right now and things feel like they are improving from baseline in October so I really don't want to wonk myself up more!

Tibc low 247 ug/do(bottom of range 250)
Uibc low 149 ug/do (bottom of range 150)
Iron 98 ug/dl
Iron saturation 40%
Ferritin 37 ng/ml
Ceruloplasmin 20.8 mg/dl
Copper 86 ug/dl
Zinc 87 ug/dl
Mag rbc 4.9 mg/dl

Edit: tried the multi with copper. No joy...copper weirdness came back.

Edit2: oooo! http://jn.nutrition.org/content/122/3_S ... 6.full.pdf I hope this is the problem! Ascorbic acid (my vitamin c supplement) stimulates transfer of copper from ceruloplasmin to cells and restricts transfer of copper to cuznsod. I've got a plan now. Stop the vitamin c and take my copper zinc blend. :D How much you want to bet this fails too? Lol
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:55 pm

i'm back and will check this out shortly :)
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