Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:11 pm

OKAY now we gots things to work with.

very important to know the ferritin is down. if we had just thrown zinc into the mix to boost the d3 absorption, it would undoubtedly have made the ferritin status worse.

so. I clipped a snippet from a recent related post re zinc and iron balancing:
as for diet, I think I already mentioned that the heme iron focus is sound from the zinc-iron balance angle..
a little more detail:

http://www.webmd.com/diet/iron-rich-foods
Very good sources of heme iron, with 3.5 milligrams or more per serving, include:
3 ounces of beef or chicken liver
3 ounces of clams, mollusks, or mussels
3 ounces of oysters


fyi
-liver is lower in zinc compared to iron, and pro-inflammatory .....http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/pou ... ucts/667/2
-clams have much less zinc compared to their iron content, are anti inflammatory .....http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fin ... cts/4182/2
-oysters have very high zinc content compared to iron, and are anti inflammatory as well .....http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fin ... cts/4192/2

So mixing it up would likely be smart.

re what you said about getting iron from beans and spinach, i'd say not while trying to work on zinc at the same time. phytates = not so hot for zinc retention.

also I hate to tell ya, but gluten intake is rough on iron and zinc absorption as well. any chance of going on a gluten reduction diet? I put my friend on a ration of one slice of bread or equivalent every other day, and he noticed big improvements in how he felt day to day.

anyway. prioritize the food and then we can talk about how to make supplements work. you'll have to balance the zinc(plus copper) and iron carefully. and given iron's binding tendencies you might have to add lots of peaches and prunes ;) or possibly even our old friend magnesium oxide, for the laxative effect.
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby Anonymoose » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:04 pm

(Inhaling big breath) Ppppppppplllllllllttttttttt!

Okay. I could probably get over the gluten thing (which would knock out at least 50% of my usual protein intake which would steer me in other directions resulting in a possible negative impact on the ozone layer so maybe I can't really get over it) but I cannot get over the other thing. Eat/purchase meat? Uuuhhhh....

(Inhaling bigger breath) Ppppppppppppllllllllltttttttt! (<-that's the veggie argument that I won't force upon others but I think you know it)

What about chocolate?!

So. There you have it. Am I going to die or can we work with my conviction affliction? Lol
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:45 pm

yeah, kinda thought that would make your head explode :S

so you do know you are talking to an ex vegan here right..? 15 yrs of die-hard industrial-food-boycotting veganism.

when i got my ms dx and really started reading, at first i tried hard to figure out how to be the healthiest most nutritiously fed vegan out there.
in the end i gave up and in one day i switched straight from vegan to the klenner protocol, eating 'high protein diet with 2-3 eggs for breakfast'.

you could start smaller than that. if you can reduce the anti-nutrients in your diet and boost the most nutrient-dense foods available, it's a step in the right direction. send me a three day food fluids diary, we'll see if we can sort something out.

you do know chocolate is full of cockroaches right? poor little things... :twisted: hehe sry. they're probably decent protein sources anyway ;)
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby Anonymoose » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:49 pm

Oh Lordy! So...you know I am currently being fed by either the mr man of the house or mr delivery man? And then there is the messed up appetite. Diet is horrible...like abysymal! I need an interim program to get me back to my usual self and then I can work on tweaking my still not great but much better diet. Don't forget I am working with picky junk food head boys here. Oy! There is so much I would rather do with my limited energy than try to cook new healthy things for them. They're impossible!

I'm thinking the thing my body may have been missing when I stopped the supplements is the iron. (Duh!). Do you suppose I could take an iron supplement (two doses 50mg elemental ferrous whatever with food per day for threeish months?) to get my energy/stamina back and then look at the bigger picture or will that make a bigger mess? Ive read if you take iron and zinc with food, they dont compete for absorption. True? Did you know iron deficiency causes neuro issues? I didn't! I could take the multi to touch a bit on zinc/copper while I am at it. And now that I've gotten a taste of online lab orders...I can test whenever and whatever I like to get a new baseline when I come back to life. Surely the low iron is causing me to be slug-like.

Got to sit on the rest anyway since I don't know "normal" results. Magnesium oxide scares me after the burn. What was that?!

Thanks for all your help. And yes, I know you were a vegan queen. That's why I figured you knew the veggie battle cry. :P oh. And I am NOT looking up that chocolate roach thing. Are you trying to ruin my entire life in one day?! (Somehow this paragraph has become disjointed. Thats what you get for dishing out the tough love. Lol)

PS and how does this fit in with that other iron thread???????
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:06 am

heya! sorry to hear you're feeling so lousy :S I agree for certain that the iron will be a huge part of why you'd be feeling sluggish. i looked over some of my old lab work the other day and i think i had a 34 result. so bad :S

for supplementing iron, stick with 50mg per day maybe to start. see how it goes, watch for new or changing symptoms. if you get backed up, you'll have to do something either dietary or laxative. so if it's not magnesium no worries, but you'll have to find some appetite for prunes and peaches :S lol

now as for iron and zinc with food, can you link me up to where you read that? if there's a study i'd be interested in reading it. it rings a bell but i'd like to re-examine. if i didn't run with the info, i want to have another look and figure out why.

seems like all the nutritent deficiencies have a neuro component :S this bear is one of my fave info resources but it's pretty heavy so i don't drag it out often: http://neuromuscular.wustl.edu/nother/vitamin.htm

the main link i wanted to touch on re the other thread is, how to balance zinc and iron intake from food. when using veg sources it's more achievable to deal with iron. not so much the zinc. for veggie zinc, if you could introduce 1/4c pumpkin seeds into your daily routine at some point, that could be a useful experiment.

glad you had a good experience with the online testing resource! so jealous :S

now. how to feed you.
anything useful for 'home cooked' meals via a local grocery store's kitchen? the one i used while on crutches was not targeted at vegans of course, but they had great diversity of sides and veggie/rice combinations. you could get a whole box of steamed seasoned asparagus for one thing - you may know that's a decent source of veg protein.
also consider takeout veggie sushi. choose the brown rice kind. mmmm brown rice: http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... e&dbid=128
make sure the sushi has avocado in it for the healthy fat. actually just make a habit of having avocados on the shopping list too.
i think amy's brand has spinach filo pies that could help with iron.
i have a recipe for a delicious vegan soup full of kidney beans - so easy to make. if you did it once every couple weeks could be a useful contribution to your total iron intake.
also, buy sweet potatoes. no effort at all to bake, and wonderfully nutrient-dense. i just try to ensure that i don't over cook. there's that window where they are cooked but still somewhat firm, then after that they go too mushy for my taste. anyway there must be ready-made freezer bags of sweet potato oven fries on the market at this stage, if plain old baked doesn't appeal.
if you are a fan of oatmeal, choose instant while you're feeling low and add mixed berries and flax seeds and maple syrup (which interestingly has more zinc in it than sugar or honey)
have a variety of nuts and seeds on hand (walnuts almonds cashews sunflower seeds) for snacking. i have these dried cranberries sweetened with apple juice in the cupboard, and these circular dark chocolate wafer things.. a few nuts some cranberries and a wafer is a pretty fun snack ;) viva la cucaracha!
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby Anonymoose » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:55 am

:) I liked that last post much better. Lol. My normal diet is filled with most of the items you suggested. No wonder I'm usually pretty healthy. (Didn't know that about asparagus and don't have a store with decent precooked food...I'm jealous of you for that!). Sweet potatoes? Well those are just wrong. Bleh. Who wants a sweet potato?! I'll have to find a recipe for them that doesn't try to make them like potatoes. Maybe sweet potato pie. :P

I read the zinc/iron thing on a pretty froofy unsubstantiated page (hence my questioning). But, here's a less froofy link that claims basically the same thing with links to studies. http://m.jn.nutrition.org/content/130/5/1378S.full

Off to get me some iron and mag oxide (and senna tea in case the mag does evil things again).
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:38 am

sounds like a plan :D do me a favour don't answer me again today :S deadline tonight and here I am, procrastinating!
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby NHE » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:42 am

Anonymoose wrote::) I liked that last post much better. Lol. My normal diet is filled with most of the items you suggested. No wonder I'm usually pretty healthy. (Didn't know that about asparagus and don't have a store with decent precooked food...I'm jealous of you for that!). Sweet potatoes? Well those are just wrong. Bleh. Who wants a sweet potato?! I'll have to find a recipe for them that doesn't try to make them like potatoes. Maybe sweet potato pie. :P


Try this: Peel after baking, slice (~ ¼" thick discs), sprinkle with cayenne pepper and enjoy. :idea:
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:39 am

LOL NHE you posted that about 20 mins after I sent in my work and crashed!
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby Anonymoose » Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:54 am

Argh! My post got eaten...it was a pain in the tukus too.

NHE,
No! That sounds gross. Lol. I really hate sweet potatoes. They must be thoroughly disguised.

JL,
Labs:
B12 high 1254
D3 34.1 (hmph...doc said 34. Doesn't he know I suffered for that .1 too?!)
Copper 107
Mag 1.8 (lame!)
Zinc 116
Calcium 9.4 (same draw different test set said 9.6...so much for accuracy)

I've got a new concoction on the way. Hopefully it will work the d3 without hurting and get my calcitriol down. I doubt it. Drs best calcium bone maker complex.

Potassium (from potassium citrate) 99 mg 3%
Vitamin C (as ascorbic acid) 250 mg 417%
Calcium (from microcrystalline hydroxyapatite) 600 mg 60%
Vitamin D (as D3, cholecalciferol) 1800 IU 450%
Vitamin K (as K2, MK-7/menaquinone-7) 80 mcg 99%
Magnesium (from dimagnesium malate) 300 mg 75%
Zinc (from zinc monomethionine) 12 mg 80%
Copper (from copper gluconate) 1200 mcg 60%
Manganese (from manganese citrate) 2 mg 100%
Microcrystalline hydroxyapatite 2727 mg †
Boron (from boron citrate) 4mg

So far no issues with the iron...no big difference either. It might have made me dumber. That would explain me deciding to reorganize garage and lift the riding mower. Now my back is threatening to rebel. Sigh.
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:34 pm

so. zinc and copper not too shabby! actually amazing. nice ratio too. if you can keep those numbers up while addressing the iron problem you should be in good shape in that department. glad you are feeling no effects from the iron yet. hopefully that means your body is snapping it up double quick time.

hmm yes, that magnesium... pesky pesky magnesium. i'm thinking about supportive cofactors. what is your regimen for b-vitamins (food or supplement-wise)?

now re the 25(OH)d3, can you give me an idea of your typical daily dietary intake of fats and oils? also, how do you feel about mushrooms?

one more favour. you have described yourself as almost vegan. can i get a refresher on which animal foods you do consume? can you rank me your 5 least objectionable animal-source foods, starting with one you object to the very least?
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:51 pm

recipe ideas to consider... (literally just ideas, i have no actual recipes to back me up sry... i have made these - or close approximations - but just on the fly throwing things together)

-pureed red lentil-cashew-carrot-sweet potato-veg bouillon soup
-how about burritos? you could hide mashed sweet potato in a refried black&kidney bean concoction, add that to a brown/wild rice combo, throw in some mixed veg (corn/spinach/red pepper) wrap it up and enjoy w salsa?

also mixing potato, carrots, and sweet potato together in a mash is pretty nice.
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby Anonymoose » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:00 pm

:D I think a got a gold star for my zinc and copper. :D

I think my diet pretty well covers all the b vitamins (except 12 but that's too high anyway). I go heavy on whole grains, beans, brown rice, lots of veggies, not sweet potatoes, nuts, etc. My folic acid was normal too...boring so didn't list it before. I was also getting some in my multi but I won't be taking the multi if the bone maker doesn't hurt. I can't do b complex because it will have b12. So...unless I buy a bunch of individual bs I don't think I can do much better. I was only taking 400mg mag/day. Maybe I should just up it when the iron and bone maker settle? I wonder if the rituxan didn't mess with the magnesium too.

Fats. I'll have cheese maybe once a week. I usually have about one pastured egg a week (since April) Avocado once. Nuts and seeds every other day. Olive oil for cooking. 2 teaspoons coconut oil a day. Earth balance for butter. Sometimes I mess with flaxseed, dha-EPA, and evening primrose oils. That's about it.

I don't have 5 animal foods I will eat! Lol. Pastured eggs are my least objectionable and I will eat renin infused cheese with guilt. Oh. I guess some of my supplements have animal goodies in them too but I stick my head in the sand about that. If I *had* to eat an animal it would be fish. But I don't like fish and it would have to be prepared in such an unhealthy fashion that it would probably wind up being detrimental to my health. And any fish I would eat, wouldn't be that nutritious anyway (sunfish? Tilapia?) Salmon will never make it near my nose much less my stomach. Eww!

I love mushrooms! I'll eat as many of those as you tell me to. :) I can't find the vitamin d mushrooms around here though.

What is this obsession with sweet potatoes?! Can man not live without them? Is this some kind of cult movement? Make sweet potatoes, not war. You people are nuts! :P

Edit: I read up on mag and bs. It's b6, right? I bet I don't hit the target on that one. Should I supplement just b6?
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:31 pm

heya :) good call to bump the mag intake to at least 600mg day to boost levels. 400mg is a maintenance dose.

re fats, think you could estimate daily grams of sat fats vs pufas?

all right good to know where the current lines are when it comes to animal products.

for mushrooms, glad you like em! as i understand it you just have to put them in the sun to get the vit d thing happening. i bet a uv plant light would do the trick too. i don't know how many IUs of d2 there are in a cup of uv-treated mushrooms, just that it's way more than when you eat them straight out of the fridge.

sweet potatoes are a super star for nutrient density, that's all. as a vegan you need as many of those in the picture as possible.

as for b6, yep. nb it is not safe to get more than 100mg of b6 per day in the long term.
see if you can find b6 50mg, take two a day on a therapeutic basis for a month, then back off to lower doses for longer term maintenance.
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby Anonymoose » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:20 am

Poor jimmy. I am a nutritionist's nightmare. Measure-bating goes against the core of my being. I can give you an overall picture of fat profile though. :) Overall my diet is low in fats. I avoid them unless in avacodos or nuts or chocoroach or egg or cheese which I also only take in once or twice a week. The coconut oil routine is weeks old and I only occasionally play with supplement fats. No trans fats for years. I'd have to say saturated fats likely outweigh pufas maybe at a 3 or 4 : 1 ratio? Good news is I could probably add any kind of fat with no issues. I think...

I will get me a to-me/from-me sunlamp for mushrooms for Xmas. And today, if all goes well I will eat my first oyster (fried...more bad fat!). Those are good for a lot of stuff including iron, right? If I can stomach them, how often should I eat them? I'll work towards healthier preparations. Baby steps. (Yes, I am totally ignoring the sweet potato propaganda).

Taking notes on your supplement advice. Will add bone maker, extra 200mg mag and 2x50mg b6 (short term) one at a time and see how it goes.

Congrats on getting your funding request completed. My fingers are crossed for you!
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