Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:27 pm

glad today was better :D

I *almost* had a client once. and got a present one time for helping someone grow a whole new baby (and some hair - talk about malnutrition)

anyway. re anemia, my understanding is you look at RBC count and hemoglobin levels. you can have plain old iron deficiency, and when the RBC and hemoglobin stuff gets in the act then you have iron deficiency anemia.

(your serum ferritin level was TWELVE right?? aim for 80-90)

ok back I go to the books. or should I say different-looking screen.
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby Anonymoose » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:00 am

Thanks. That makes sense. I guess it doesn't matter anyway as I'm getting betta everyday! :D

Bad news: The way I like salmon cooks the o-3 out. Argh! Will have to try another way.

Question: I started the bone maker last night and took it again this am (2 caps 3x/day). Both times I got the tiniest calcium type feeling just on the tops of my feet. Does this mean I shouldn't take it or I should ignore the weirdness hoping it will go away once I stop making so much calcitriol? "They" say high calcitriol plus low vitamin d means you should up your calcium and d. We really shouldn't be so complicated! I'm inclined to just keep going to see what happens but thought I'd ask.

Congrats on finishing all your work (for now). Big plans for the holidays?
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:31 am

heya :) glad you are still improving!

you could just add a good quality fish oil product if it comes down to it. not instead of the salmon but as well. not sure what the effects of blackening are on other nutrients, but I know cooked salmon has about 4-5 times more vit b12 than beef..

this bone maker. i will have to look into it. i remember i wasn't keep on the ca:mg ratio in it, but i don't have a very clear handle on the interactions btw 1,25(OH)2D3, 25(OH)D3 and calcium. gut feeling says if it feels off, don't do it.

re busy stuff, thanks! new stuff just piles on but I can deal :S hehe
no big plans for the holidays. I'm pretty low key that way. this time last year I was gearing up to move to the local ski town to be a snow pro/bum for the winter. no dice on that one this year!
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby lyndacarol » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:19 am

Anonymoose wrote:I started the bone maker last night and took it again this am (2 caps 3x/day). Both times I got the tiniest calcium type feeling just on the tops of my feet.

Please let me add my thoughts: Gluten is my latest preoccupation. It is often used as the filler in supplements and vitamins. If the label on the bone maker does not specifically say "gluten-free," I would call the manufacturer to confirm that there is no gluten; or simply assume there is gluten in the product.

Wheat gluten raises the blood sugar level; the insulin level rises in response to the increased blood sugar. Maybe the insulin is affecting the blood vessels or muscles on the tops of your feet. Just a thought…
My hypothesis: excess insulin (hyperinsulinemia) plays a major role in MS, as developed in my initial post: http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-discussion-f1/topic1878.html "Insulin – Could This Be the Key?"
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby Anonymoose » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:37 am

Jimmy,
Thanks! I am feeling crazy good today and the calcium feeling went away faster than it did yesterday. Definitely heading in the right direction. I will throw in a 200mg mag with bone builder dose 2 and 3 today so it's 600:700 calcium:mag.

That's more bad news on the salmon. I need anti-b12 right now! Maybe I'll just go back to the algae omegas. That salmon is way too filling!

You are safer off those skis...death traps they are! I nearly killed my fifth grade teacher on the bunny hill!

Lyndacarol,
I don't think gluten is playing into my current mini-issue. I always eat gluten...pure gluten sometimes! I don't react to it at all though it likely influences my nutrient levels in a more subtle fashion. Seeing any positive results from your gluten free diet?

Sad news: I'm afraid I won't be able to contain my energy today. Cleaning duty will once again be mine. <weep>
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:01 pm

oh pish you don't need to be anti b12. it's not like you have to eat salmon daily anyway!

I will be back later just a quick message check for now
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby Anonymoose » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:11 am

Wrong again! Light neuro symptoms started yesterday evening after taking all three bone maker doses plus the extra magnesium. Less energy today too. Took am bone maker but I'm keeping it to one dose to see if things go back to awesome.

Dug this up...http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/1503065/
In 13 of 17 infants (aged 10.5 +/- 4.3; mean +/- SD mo) with iron-deficiency anemia, the serum 24,25-dihydroxyvitamin D concentration was below the normal range and in 9 of these 13 the serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D concentration was below the normal range despite the fact that these infants received 10 micrograms vitamin D/d from the age of 1 mo. The infants were treated with intramuscular iron dextran (Imferon). The iron-dextran treatment increased the hemoglobin and serum iron concentrations as well as 25-hydroxyvitamin D and 24,25-dihydroxyvitamin D concentrations. It is known that iron deficiency impairs fat and vitamin A intestinal absorption. Therefore, it is suggested that absorption of vitamin D may also be impaired. This may contribute to the development of vitamin D deficiency. Iron supplementation may have improved the absorption of vitamin D in the small intestine and hence increased the vitamin D concentration in the plasma.

Never heard that before! So...if I am upping iron levels, maybe I can get away with less vitamin d supplementation anyway? Also read that a greater % of vitamin d supplement is absorbed when the dosage is lower.

Jimmy??? Do you suppose it would be best to just focus on the iron for the next ~three months and see what affect that has on everything else?

Edit: this study say iron doesn't impact d. Sigh. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22618893/
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby leonardo » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:11 pm

I have similar situation as you, I have vit D level at the low end of normal range ~40ng and calcium slightly over the limit.
I want to take D3 but I think that supplementation makes me worse at quite low doses (dizziness, tension in my back), I get these symptoms even after 5-6 days of 5000UI per day.
Tried to take it with Mg but it makes me even worse, I think that it's because Mg lowers blood pressure...

Do you have your problems consistently after vit D suplemantation?

Is there any way to lower calcium?
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby Anonymoose » Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:23 pm

Hi Leonardo,
Do you mean your calcitriol/activated vitamin d is at the high end of the range? I don't have high calcium but previously (currently? Heck I don't know!) reacted to calcium supplements with neuro pain in legs, hands, and feet.

I only recently started reacting negatively to vitamin d after less than 1 week at 5000mg/day. It made me feel like I had taken calcium...ouch! Which set me off to react negatively to magnesium in the short term too. How's your iron? I do wonder if my newly low iron caused my reaction to vitamin d. I haven't tried a big dose of vitamin d since but seemed to have no issues with 600mg.

I think sodium can lower calcium...causes the body to excrete it in urine. Actually the first night I reacted to vitamin d I got up and grabbed what I was craving but really don't like...salty potato chips. Somehow they made me feel good enough to get to sleep. Magnesium competes for absorption with calcium so that might lower it too.

If you have high calcium and low d, I really don't know how to address it. Maybe the calcium is being sucked out of your bones because dietary intake is low. It might work to take calcium and d (and k and all that other symbiotic stuff) to normalize your levels. I really haven't a clue!

Looks like we need jimmylegs on the case...
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby leonardo » Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:42 pm

I know only the result of D-25-OH (it's 40ng/something) I don't know the 1,25 level.

I think that I need to make calcium test, I mean try to take calcium supplement to see if it causes any trouble.

I had calcium below the low limit before I ever started vit D.
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby Anonymoose » Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:01 pm

leonardo wrote:I know only the result of D-25-OH (it's 40ng/something) I don't know the 1,25 level.

I think that I need to make calcium test, I mean try to take calcium supplement to see if it causes any trouble.

I had calcium below the low limit before I ever started vit D.

Was the low calcium shown on a recent test? If so, I think the way to go is the vitamin d with calcium and supportive nutrients. I have the link to a doctors explanation on another device. Will post it later if you want. Basically, when you take the vitamin d, if your calcium is low the body sends out a blast of calcitriol to increase calcium absorption in the gut (but it will take it from bones if dietary calcium not available). My test results are from a week after my vitamin d reaction and a 7 day washout so I think my calcium levels were high during the reaction and settled down.

Can you get your calcium and calcitriol tested? I had great success with tests ordered online. :)
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby Scott1 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:18 pm

Hi Anonymoose,

As you were feeling better and now you don't why not back off everything and see where the baseline really is. The Rituxan should have bombed out the EBV so your Peroxynitrite load should be much lower. This would suggest the NO in your system would be the greater issue now which will be more to do with the endothelium than anything else. If you feel better then don't resume what your doing now. If it make no difference or makes you worse then at least you know and can resume other things. I think you are trying too hard to get the next leg up and you won't be able to separate what works from what doesn't.
If I was you, after thing base out, I would try L-arginine and start working on the endothelial issues because EBV will be much less of an issue now.

Regards
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby Anonymoose » Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:11 am

Hi scott1,

Hm. That l arginine falls into a completely experimental zone for me. I know I have low iron which I cannot stop addressing or I will fall back on my face. And since I have to work on that, I may as well be addressing the low magnesium and the vitamin d/calcitriol situation. The fact that I can get so off kilter so easily with these supplements indicates to me that nutritional balance is key to neuro function. Deficiencies/imbalances cause neuro issues that aren't directly related to ms (my new/different symptoms after rituxan were cleared out with iron supplementation). I'm guessing these imbalances are the result of ms, not the cause, so maybe if ebv is the cause, it will be easier to get things back in balance/at decent levels. If I still have neuro issues after that, I will start looking at experimental things like l arginine again.

I'm back to good again today after going down to a 1/3 dose of the bone maker. I popped a magnesium and that wiped out all the weird within an hour. So I think I need to hit the mag harder before I amp up the bone maker again. We shall see.

Sorry the alanine experiment failed. At least that's another thing knocked off the list of possibilities. :)
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:51 am

I'm back to good again today after going down to a 1/3 dose of the bone maker. I popped a magnesium and that wiped out all the weird within an hour. So I think I need to hit the mag harder before I amp up the bone maker again.
that fits with what I felt about the cal mag ratio in that bone maker. right on the money. glad mag is helping symptom-wise. since the zinc is in a good place, it will be interesting work to tease out the d3 absorption situation (by the way when you said 5000mg per day ... you did mean IU right??)
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: Jimmylegs...too much vitamin d = ouch?

Postby Anonymoose » Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:12 am

Iu mg whatever :P

I'm thinking 600mg mag/day with 1/3 dose bone maker for 2 weeks then up to 2/3 dose bone maker (600mg total mag still) for two weeks then up again to full dose bone maker (600 total mag). I don't know why I bother planning as plans always fall apart.

I'm also picking up the b6 today so maybe that will help the mag go up faster. I'll look for a low dose because it looks a bit scary at the higher doses. Or is that wrong? Lol
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