Low testosterone is associated with disability in MS men

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Low testosterone is associated with disability in MS men

Postby MSUK » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:17 am

Low testosterone is associated with disability in men with multiple sclerosis

Abstract

BACKGROUND: Gonadal steroids may modulate disease course in multiple sclerosis (MS).......... Read More - http://www.ms-uk.org/hormones
MS-UK - http://www.ms-uk.org/
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Re: Low testosterone is associated with disability in MS men

Postby Kronk » Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:47 am

This is a very interesting subject which i have read about a great deal. But when I had my testosterone levels checked I was at 600ng/dL double the upper limit of what they saw in their test. I am only 33 though so it may drop with age and be a factor in the conversion to PPMS.

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Re: Low testosterone is associated with disability in MS men

Postby zjac020 » Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:48 pm

I had my testosterone looked into in 2011 when the wife and I were trying to get pregnant. She's had been having health issues ands so our libidos were at a all time low. Even then I tested right underneath the upper limit of the normal range. I remember being surprised. Almost three years later and 11 months after being diagnosed with CIS my level is now just under the low limit of the normal range. I e asked for free testosterone as I understand that is the one that can be used up by the body. As usual neuros pay no attention to this and the urologist sends me back to the neuro if I'm interested in raising my levels for MS reasons as from his point of view at 33 yrs of age) it's not really am issue as losing as I still get erections.

They disappointment with doctors just don't stop...
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Re: Low testosterone is associated with disability in MS men

Postby Leonard » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:33 am

it is not only that low testosterone is associated with disability in MS men,
as I understand it driving up the testosterone may help overcome MS for all.
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Re: Low testosterone is associated with disability in MS men

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:43 am

hello again, zinc :)
Zinc status and serum testosterone levels of healthy adults
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 079680058X
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Re: Low testosterone is associated with disability in MS men

Postby zjac020 » Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:16 pm

Hey Jimmy,

I wish I knew what my serum zinc level was when it was "high" a few years back. As you well know my zinc levels could be higher and im working on that, but can that be the only cause?

Leonard - any experience with driving up testosterone? I think Jimmylegs advice on zinc is important, but im wondering if anyone has ever actually taking testosterone...
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Re: Low testosterone is associated with disability in MS men

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:22 pm

heya :) getting a 'high' zinc result would really all depend on what boundaries the specific lab sets around 'normal'. i've seen everything from 14 to 19.1 set as the top end.

as for whether zinc might be the only reason for low testosterone, i did a generic scholar search on low testosterone and nutrition deficiency and on the surface it's all zinc and possible correlations with vit d3 status (which would make sense since zinc is an important cofactor)

this looked interesting:
Low testosterone levels are common and associated with insulin resistance in men with diabetes
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18319314

low zinc is definitely associated with insulin resistance, but so is magnesium so had a look at mag and testosterone. the results sort of shifted over to studies in postmenopausal women.

given that zinc is such an established known when it comes to reproductive health, plus the links between low testosterone and other health issues that also involve low zinc, i'm thinking that optimizing zinc would be your 'occam's razor' kind of approach. then, once zinc deficit has been ruled out as a factor, one might look for other possible causes of subpar testosterone status.

The role of zinc in reproduction
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02784623
Zinc is a very important element in the reproductive cycle of species. In humans, it is necessary for the formation and maturation of spermatozoa, for ovulation, and for fertilization. During pregnancy, zinc deficiency causes a number of anomalies: spontaneous abortion, pregnancy-related toxemia, extended pregnancy or prematurity, malformations, and retarded growth. Delivery is adversely affected by deficiency. These different effects of zinc can be explained by its multiple action on the metabolism of androgen hormones, estrogen and progesterone, together with the prostaglandins. Nuclear receptors for steroids are all zinc finger proteins. Zinc supplementation has already proven beneficial in male sterility and in reducing complications during pregnancy. However, it would be worth conducting larger-scale trials to confirm these beneficial effects.
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Re: Low testosterone is associated with disability in MS men

Postby leonardo » Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:28 pm

Testosterone level depends from Vitamin D:

https://www.thieme-connect.com/products ... 30-1269854
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Re: Low testosterone is associated with disability in MS men

Postby Kronk » Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:08 pm

And again we have EBV.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1663147
"...supports the concept that E2 (estrodiol) may have a role in the pathogenesis of some autoimmune diseases..."

It is important to note that it is impossible to drive up your testosterone levels without increasing estrodiol the male estrogen. The human body always seeks balance, if you boost your test you will boost your estrogen. The only way to reduce estrogen is to take an anti-aromatase product but they are generally not safe to use for more than 8 weeks. As the link above states Estrogen encouraged the growth of EBV, while testosterone and progesterone did not. So while this specific study did not show testosterone directly reduces EBV (and therefore what i believe one of the root causes of MS) other studies theoretically should.
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Re: Low testosterone is associated with disability in MS men

Postby jerrygallow » Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:01 pm

I love how everyone has their angle :) I'll throw a couple more out there. I'm concerned also with copper. Studies show copper is high in MS, but then others say that the body mobilizes copper because it is an anti inflammatory and maybe even anti viral. For a long time, I did not supplement zinc because it made me feel worse. I read somewhere that zinc nearly doubles your attacker T cells within just a few hours. That's not a great thing for auto immune.

But lately, I have been supplementing half a tablet and I feel fine (25mg). I've done it five times or so a week for several months. Sometimes I can double that dose and take a whole tablet. But do you add a copper supplement when you do that? Copper is needed for myelin.

And on the issue of testosterone (as a follower of the Swank diet), it concerns me that we make testosterone out of fat, especially saturated fat. Anybody have any insights on that subject? Can we make it out of flax oil or fish oil?
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Re: Low testosterone is associated with disability in MS men

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:57 pm

limiting sat fat does not mean eradicating sat fat! i can't find a minimum dietary sat fat requirement but i sure as hell wish somebody would publish one.

glad to hear you are feeling all right on 25mg zinc. when i first tested deficient, the doc told me to take 100mg per day for a month. it made me feel sick so i quit. 'break it up into 50mg morning and night' she suggested, probably thinking what an idiot i was, and of course using that approach i was fine.

remind me jerry, if you've had serum zinc testing done and if your levels are in fact low?

i'm not sure how many times i've said the copper zinc balance is important and that we need to ensure zinc supplements are properly balanced with copper (eg 50mg zinc balanced with 2mg copper) but if i had a dollar for every time, pretty sure i would be pretty rich.

when copper is high, you push it down by upping the zinc. to match healthy controls, serum zinc should be around 120 ug/dL, serum copper around 115 ug/dL.

i'd be interested to see what you read about zinc and t-cells, if you can find a link and post!
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Re: Low testosterone is associated with disability in MS men

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:43 pm

So while this specific study did not show testosterone directly reduces EBV (and therefore what i believe one of the root causes of MS) other studies theoretically should.

i have a very close family friend who had chronic ebv infection for years, i used exactly the same nutritional optimization approach for her as i would for anyone here, and with persistence, she got better (confirmed via viral load testing).
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Re: Low testosterone is associated with disability in MS men

Postby Kronk » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:44 pm

jerrygallow wrote:And on the issue of testosterone (as a follower of the Swank diet), it concerns me that we make testosterone out of fat, especially saturated fat. Anybody have any insights on that subject? Can we make it out of flax oil or fish oil?


I have been on the Swank diet for 12 months and my testosterone is more than healthy at 600+, granted I do not follow the unsaturated fat limits anymore. It is important to note that testosterone does not come from saturated fat, it comes from cholesterol. The OMS diet eliminates all saturated fat but advocates seafood, if you ever looked at the nutritional info for shrimp and most seafood it has a ton of cholesterol. If you are concerned, and test low, you could supplement with DHEA, See image below.

jimmylegs wrote:limiting sat fat does not mean eradicating sat fat! i can't find a minimum dietary sat fat requirement but i sure as hell wish somebody would publish one.


Actually the OMS diet from Dr.Jelinek advocates no saturated fat, and he has many success stories including himself being in remission for 12 years. I think the argument is that there are so many hidden saturated fats in foods that we simply have to make a conscious choice to have none at all knowingly. Our bodies can break down Long Chain Fatty Acids to get the short chains that we need. I believe there is sufficient evidence to eliminate saturated fat from the MS diet. I will not bore all with the ridiulous amount of research studies I have found that implicate Short Chain Fatty Acid in MS progression. That being said I do not follow the zero rule and calculate that I eat between 10g to 15g of sat. fat. each day. By the way Jimmy I have seen several references to 24g per day for an adult. That being said fat really only serves as quick energy which you can provide in different forms.

As Jerry said there are so many theories and angles in MS find the ones that work for you and implement them. Swank diet is working for me, so I will not deviate unless that changes.

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Re: Low testosterone is associated with disability in MS men

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:46 am

I will not bore all with the ridiulous amount of research studies I have found that implicate Short Chain Fatty Acid in MS progression.

a couple would be good, maybe there's a review article or something?
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Re: Low testosterone is associated with disability in MS men

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:06 am

By the way Jimmy I have seen several references to 24g per day for an adult.
i could buy into that if the fat came from the right source. that said, my status quo is a lot closer to 15 than 24 (the equivalent of a cup of mayo!)
i enjoyed this paper:
Food for Thought: Have We Been Giving the Wrong Dietary Advice?
http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperDownl ... erID=28741
ABSTRACT
Background: Since 1984 UK citizens have been advised to reduce total dietary fat intake to 30% of total energy and saturated fat intake to 10%. The National Institute of Clinical Excellence [NICE] suggests a further benefit for Coronary Heart Disease [CHD] prevention by reducing saturated fat [SFA] intake to 6% - 7% of total energy and that 30,000 lives
could be saved by replacing SFAs with Polyunsaturated fats [PUFAs]. Methods: 20 volumes of the Seven Countries Study, the seminal work behind the 1984 nutritional guidelines, were assessed. The evidence upon which the NICE guidance was based was reviewed. Nutritional facts about fat and the UK intake of fat are presented and the impact of
macronutrient confusion on public health dietary advice is discussed. Findings: The Seven Countries study classified processed foods, primarily carbohydrates, as saturated fats. The UK government and NICE do the same, listing biscuits, cakes, pastries and savoury snacks as saturated fats. Processed foods should be the target of public health advice but not natural fats, in which the UK diet is deficient. With reference to the macro and micro nutrient composition of meat, fish, eggs, and dairy foods the article demonstrates that dietary trials cannot change one type of fat for another in a controlled study. Interpretation: The evidence suggests that processed food is strongly associated with the increase in obesity, diabetes, CHD, and other modern illness in our society. The macro and micro nutrients found in meat, fish, eggs and dairy products, are vital for human health and consumption of these nutritious foods should be encouraged.
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