Are these initial symtoms of MS?

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Re: Are these initial symtoms of MS?

Postby jimmylegs » Sat May 24, 2014 8:19 pm

hi again, ok you want your serum b12 up to at least 370 pg/mL or 500 pmol/L - even better if it was up to 500 pg/mL.
don't worry about having taken the b complex when you did the test - it's still low, so you know you need to work on it either way.

copper would be better up around 110-115 ug/dL to match healthy controls, and for zinc i'm assuming that's 83.6 not 836 correct? if so, you want that up to more like 120 ug/dL.
it's good that your zinc is higher than your copper, but they are both pretty low.

re sideremia.. that's serum iron correct? i was afraid of that. i don't have any specific advice for serum iron. all i can offer you are some ranges... looks like your level is in the middle of the range, a bit left of centre:

Normal reference ranges are:

Serum Iron (SI):[1]
Men: 65 to 176 μg/dL
Women: 50 to 170 μg/dL
Newborns: 100 to 250 μg/dL
Children: 50 to 120 μg/dL

for future, serum ferritin would probably be a better test to run.

based on these results, i think that starting a long term nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory food regimen, including healthy fats, as well as a high quality multivitamin/mineral, would be wise.

re your copper zinc and b12 being low, a short term therapeutic balanced copper-zinc treatment could be wise.

you can look for sublingual methylcobalamin 1000 mcg and take one of those each day in the afternoon for one month, to help boost b12.

also try to make sure your diet includes LOTS of healthy magnesium - on the order of 400mg per day from food at a *minimum*, and more when you feel bad (magnesium glycinate is the best supplemental form, if you find you need one to keep intakes topped up!)

late here, nite nite
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: Are these initial symtoms of MS?

Postby timoria » Sat May 24, 2014 10:41 pm

Hi Jimmy,

Thanks so much for your advice. I didn't have blood tests after starting BeTotal but before. I started a few days later. This means that 282 is the actual value.

Just to recap, do you believe I should not investigate further (see quote below)? My neurological symptoms are severe (double vision and balance loss 3 times per year during exercise, daily nightly muscles spams and fatigue), shouldn't I look for giving a definite name to my problem?

Do you think I should only try to raise those values and see if my symptoms improve?

How many days should pass from the one I started the B complex to see the effects? Should I try to double the dose if I cannot see any benefit?

Thanks again so much.
Last edited by timoria on Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are these initial symtoms of MS?

Postby timoria » Sat May 24, 2014 10:44 pm

Jimmy,

Regarding this:
i think that starting a long term nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory food regimen, including healthy fats, as well as a high quality multivitamin/mineral


I went to the pharmacy and simply asked for a vitamin B complex. What do you mean with high quality? Is it something I can find in a pharmacy? How do I recognize the product you recommend? Is there something available worldwide I can look for? I live in Italy.

Thanks.
Last edited by timoria on Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are these initial symtoms of MS?

Postby jimmylegs » Sun May 25, 2014 6:32 am

hi again :) supplements can have components that might be synthetic, or made from incomplete or poorly absorbed forms, or both.

for example a multi with good b12 (eg methylcobalamin) is more difficult to find than one with low quality b12 (eg cyanocobalamin).

similarly a multi with good vitamin E 8 complex is much harder to find than a low quality vit E which would only contain alpha tocopherol (either natural l-alpha tocopherol or synthetic dl-alpha tocopherol). and FYI when you hear scare stories about vitamin E causing cancer, it's from SELECT, a study that used synthetic alpha tocopherol. i know of no reports of toxicity from vit E from food, or from natural source natural ratio vitamin E 8 complex supplements.

one of the highest quality multivitamin/minerals i know of, also has a bunch of herbal ingredients which i found i did not like.
http://www.aor.ca/products-page/advanced/ortho-core/
the price is affected, the number of pills per day is double the next highest quality product offered by that brand (6 per day vs 3 per day), and to top it off it made my feet smell horrific (and i was working in ski boots all day at the time).

this is the product i use instead, but you can see it has a less ideal form of b12
http://www.aor.ca/products-page/advance ... -basics-3/

products can be deceiving, as in this brand 'nature made' which doesn't specify forms, and in 'other' ingredients you can see synthetics namely dl-alpha tocopherol
http://www.naturemade.com/products/vita ... ximin-pack

this one too, i would have thought would be great but it doesn't have the best b12 or the best vit E, while it does load up on herbal ingredients.
http://www.naturesway.com/Products/Vita ... tamin.aspx

forms aside, then you get into amounts and that's a whole other ballgame.

so, you could either order something like AOR multi basics 3 via iherb.com, or print off a copy of the label and take it to a local nutrition and health specialty store, and ask them to show you some options. and then make sure your actual diet provides as much of the various nutrients and as few antinutrients and depleting influences as possible :)
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: Are these initial symtoms of MS?

Postby timoria » Mon May 26, 2014 6:29 am

Hi Jimmy,

As far as I can see, Methylcobalamin is not allowed in Italy. What do you think about the following products (from amazon UK), do you know some of them?:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_nos ... lcobalamin

I also uploaded my latest blood test here: do you think there is something else to be integrated?

Thanks.
Last edited by timoria on Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are these initial symtoms of MS?

Postby jimmylegs » Mon May 26, 2014 7:31 am

since you need to work on zinc and copper as well as b12, not to mention your being athletic, i would suggest you consider a multi rather than focusing solely on b12 supplements.

here are some options available via amazon.co.uk

multi: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Multi-Basics-%C ... ywords=aor

advanced b complex: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Advanced-Series ... ywords=aor

they both look expensive.

the multi is less than half that price via iherb:
http://www.iherb.com/Advanced-Orthomole ... Caps/33054

and the b complex is way cheaper as well through iherb as well:
http://www.iherb.com/Advanced-Orthomole ... Caps/33062

(you have to go to checkout to be able to adjust currency)

this is the only stuff i can locate on iherb that specifically states the products are prohibited in italy: http://www.iherb.com/Prohibited-Italy
no fake eyelashes for you!

the amount of zinc in the AOR multi is not that high, neither does it contain iron. if we were to go to diet for those needs, what are your feelings about shellfish? would you eat oysters and/or clams once a week?
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: Are these initial symtoms of MS?

Postby timoria » Mon May 26, 2014 11:10 pm

Jimmy,

The multi does not contain methylcobalamin, am I missing something? My main goal is to prevent double vision/balance loss/vomit episodes, not to balance my blood test values: I cannot guess if my problems are generated by nutrition depletion in general or B12 deficiency.

In addition, I would like so much to determine if I really have nutrition depletion or B12 deficiency before taking these pills for months. I could tell if they help only if I go beyond 6 months without new episodes.

Is there any way to assess this in advance?

Thanks,

Timoria
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Re: Are these initial symtoms of MS?

Postby jimmylegs » Tue May 27, 2014 8:33 am

well, your levels are low and you have symptoms. it's a pretty easy test to fix the nutrient depletion issues to check if your symptoms resolve. i'm kind of surprised you're not seeing the connection, but so be it!

you can consider supplements a short term therapeutic approach but in the longer term, you'll need to work on ensuring a more nutrient dense diet that meets daily recommended values at a minimum, as well as monitoring your serum levels over time to make sure you're not depleted due to athletic activity.

the only way i can assess possible progress in advance, is by looking at the bloodwork you just had done, and seeing that your levels are much more consistent with an ms patient's levels than a healthy control's, and knowing that people feel better when they work on depleted levels - even within so-called 'normal' ranges (and that is just plain old readily available science).
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
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Re: Are these initial symtoms of MS?

Postby timoria » Tue May 27, 2014 9:33 am

Jimmy,

Thanks again for your thoughts, I will purchase a serious multi soon and start counting the days from the last episode.
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Re: Are these initial symtoms of MS?

Postby timoria » Fri May 30, 2014 12:15 pm

Hi Jimmy,

Just to let you know that a generic Vitamin B complex in 10 days didn't change my soft daily symptoms. I ordered the AOR multi you recommend on iHerb and will receive it next week. I will switch to it immediately to see if things improve.

Do you expect such a difference between a generic B complex and AOR multi?

Thanks,

Timoria
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Re: Are these initial symtoms of MS?

Postby jimmylegs » Fri May 30, 2014 12:50 pm

hi again :)

since you have low levels of zinc and copper as well b12, yes i would expect a multi to do a better job than a b-complex.

note that with the AOR product you'll need to take 3 per day

since i don't know how to evaluate sideremia results, it's hard to say if you also have iron problems. either way, there's no iron in multi basics 3.
if you get a chance, see if the doc will run a test of your serum ferritin.

remind me what your diet is like overall? in the absence of more comprehensive bloodwork, it could be useful to evaluate a few things from the intake side.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
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Re: Are these initial symtoms of MS?

Postby timoria » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:12 am

Hi Jimmy,

The 8th episode arrived and was even more complicated than others. Please see full details here.

Was under a generic vitamin B complex from two weeks, for sure not the best supplement on earth but something should had helped. What do you think?

I still see so much MS symptoms in my episode history...

Regarding your questions, there are a number of my blood tests on that page. I added them later. My diet? meat, eggs, fish, lot of vegetable and fruits. Just a few of dairy product to keep cholesterol under control.
Last edited by timoria on Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are these initial symtoms of MS?

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:43 am

hi :) sorry to hear about the latest episode.

what sorts of seafood do you eat mostly? also, what kinds of fruits and veg would you say you eat most often? any grains, legumes, nuts, and/or seeds in the routine? are you good at staying hydrated?

on the flip side - do you often go 8 hrs between eating meals or snacks?

(fyi your low zinc could be connected to higher cholesterol levels)
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
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Posts: 10770
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Re: Are these initial symtoms of MS?

Postby want2bike » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:49 am

If what you are doing is not working you need to look at other options. Symptoms (double vision) are caused by toxins in the body. Nutrition is a means of removing these toxins. Some people use fasting to detoxify the body. I use interment fasting myself. I try to eat between the hours of 12 noon and 6 PM. This gives the body more time to work on detoxifying. I have done 3 day fast but longer fast require medical supervision unless you are experienced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzWyiYUu-Dk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyNTTY2zyrw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1fiGJxkFWU
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Re: Are these initial symtoms of MS?

Postby timoria » Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:03 am

Hi Jimmy,

1) I usually eat cod, salmon and tuna.
2) Veg and Fruits? All of the seasonal ones. Twice a week on legumes. Good on staying hydrated? Don't know.

on the flip side - do you often go 8 hrs between eating meals or snacks?

No, it was because of vomit. Thinking back to Sunday episode, I eat some rice crackers before having the walk outside but no drink at all. I will update the web page now.

Do you still think that nutrition depletion or dehydration can lead to such symptoms? Why there is always a headache the day before?

Thanks.
Last edited by timoria on Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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