What's the verdict on coffee?

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Luongo
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What's the verdict on coffee?

Post by Luongo »

I was recently diagnosed with acid reflux disease (pile it on!). Coffee really appears to be the biggest inflammatory agent in my gut, although unfortunately beer and spicy foods are some of my favorite things and those are also naughty. There are a lot considerations I'm making regarding my finicky gut and possible ties to MS progression, but that's just a side note.

I get up at 6:30 AM so a cup of coffee is pretty crucial to get my day going. I'm hearing conflicting things about how that fits into a responsible MS diet. I read that coffee is a rich source of antioxidants (okay... that's good!) but then I hear that it is a vasoconstrictor (CCSVI... that's bad!) but then I hear that it is an iron chelator (that's... good?) but it severely dehydrates me and feeling constantly dehydrated seems to be common in PwMS (that's all bad) so it seems exacerbating. Then there are other considerations about whether caffeine is a good thing or a bad thing with MS.

And finally, I feel just plain weird after I drink coffee. If I finish my coffee at 10 AM, by 3 PM or so to about 8PM I'm just a nightmare to be around. An irritated (and irritating) and just plain mean person at times. I don't know if it winds up my emotional lability or if it's just the irritability of a normal coffee crash but it's really not a state of being I enjoy feeling.

Does anyone have any input? Good/bad? Do you drink coffee, do you find it has any effect on you?
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jimmylegs
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Re: What's the verdict on coffee?

Post by jimmylegs »

hi luongo :)

forgive me i can't recall if we have specifically chatted about nutritional approaches before. please forgive me if you've heard all this before!:

personally i would try magnesium for the GERD. magnesium glycinate specifically. up to 600 mg per day while you feel bad. especially if dietary intake is low. sample products:
http://orangenaturals.com/essential/mag ... g_60v_cap/
http://kirkmanlabs.com/ProductKirkman/1 ... llergenic/

magnesium is one of several things that are important for proper hydration. mg is depleted by coffee consumption, physical or emotional stress, and various medications such as proton pump inhibitors. if you are taking vitamin d3, it can monopolize your magnesium intake and leave other body magnesium requirement short. if you are taking daily d3 AND magnesium, this can still be the case. some must be taken at the same time as d3, and some well away.

low magnesium levels are common in ms patients. low magnesium is also associated with irritability.

I had low magnesium and worked to fix it. when i took too much, i noticed as a feeling of weakness in my legs. when i took it at the wrong time of day, on an empty stomach, it loosened my LES and gave me what was dxd as an acid reflux cough, even though i had no heartburn. (such a short sentence, but what a long time it took irl to figure it all out!)

since magnesium deficit results in muscle spasticity, i suspect that the LES may be spastic in many cases of GERD. traditional calcium pills would logically make the situation better in a ph sense, but worse in a sphincter functionality sense. it is logical that too much magnesium would cause a problem by going too far in the other direction.

magnesium is a relatively cheap experiment to run on yourself and it has so many side benefits..

related science
Magnesium and calcium in exhaled breath condensate of children with asthma and gastroesophageal reflux disease
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 6/abstract
"the magnesium to calcium ratio was statistically significantly lower in both GERD and asthma children as compared with control group."
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Scott1
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Re: What's the verdict on coffee?

Post by Scott1 »

How do you have your coffee?

In Melbourne we take it deadly seriously so when you say coffee how is it made?

Regards
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Leonard
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Re: What's the verdict on coffee?

Post by Leonard »

the verdict is positive.

coffee stimulates the adrenal, more cortisol is produced, lower NO and thus peroxynitrite.

studies have shown its positive effects for diabetes 2, an other "auto"immune disease.
Last edited by Leonard on Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
ElliotB
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Re: What's the verdict on coffee?

Post by ElliotB »

Many recommend against the consumption of caffeine from any source, including coffee. Here is some basic info:

http://tamingmultiplesclerosis.com/ms-a ... ticle.html

In any case, since you already know you are having some kind of reaction to coffee, whether you should stop or not is kind of obvious. The bottom line is caffeine is a drug. And an addicting one. And you do go through withdrawal when you stop. It can take 1-2 weeks to recover.

You may want to consider reading this article for further info:

http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2014/03/25 ... ne-varies/

Want to feel more awake in the morning? Go to bed 1/2 hour earlier, get up 1/2 hour earlier and go for a 1/2 hour brisk walk. After just a few weeks, you will be surprised how good you feel!
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jimmylegs
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Re: What's the verdict on coffee?

Post by jimmylegs »

jimmylegs wrote:hi luongo :)

forgive me i can't recall if we have specifically chatted about nutritional approaches before. please forgive me if you've heard all this before!:

personally i would try magnesium for the GERD. magnesium glycinate specifically. up to 600 mg per day while you feel bad. especially if dietary intake is low. sample products:
http://orangenaturals.com/essential/mag ... g_60v_cap/
http://kirkmanlabs.com/ProductKirkman/1 ... llergenic/

magnesium is one of several things that are important for proper hydration. mg is depleted by coffee consumption, physical or emotional stress, and various medications such as proton pump inhibitors. if you are taking vitamin d3, it can monopolize your magnesium intake and leave other body magnesium requirement short. if you are taking daily d3 AND magnesium, this can still be the case. some must be taken at the same time as d3, and some well away.

low magnesium levels are common in ms patients. low magnesium is also associated with irritability.

I had low magnesium and worked to fix it. when i took too much, i noticed as a feeling of weakness in my legs. when i took it at the wrong time of day, on an empty stomach, it loosened my LES and gave me what was dxd as an acid reflux cough, even though i had no heartburn. (such a short sentence, but what a long time it took irl to figure it all out!)

since magnesium deficit results in muscle spasticity, i suspect that the LES may be spastic in many cases of GERD. traditional calcium pills would logically make the situation better in a ph sense, but worse in a sphincter functionality sense. it is logical that too much magnesium would cause a problem by going too far in the other direction.

magnesium is a relatively cheap experiment to run on yourself and it has so many side benefits..

related science
Magnesium and calcium in exhaled breath condensate of children with asthma and gastroesophageal reflux disease
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 6/abstract
"the magnesium to calcium ratio was statistically significantly lower in both GERD and asthma children as compared with control group."
personally, i enjoy my daily coffee but emphasize magnesium rich foods and take my mag supplement regularly :)
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Luongo
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Re: What's the verdict on coffee?

Post by Luongo »

Wow! I wasn't expecting feedback so fast! Thanks to everyone who responded
jimmylegs wrote:hi luongo :)

forgive me i can't recall if we have specifically chatted about nutritional approaches before. please forgive me if you've heard all this before
Nothing too nitty-gritty. I asked for dietary suggestions and what kind of things people have been eating on the Wahls diet since my regular lunch rotation was running low on ideas. I mentioned that I have low Vitamin D. I asked whether people drink much alcohol or not. I think that's about it.

I'm willing to try the magnesium but I'm fearful that I have some kind of malabsorption and it wouldn't really do any good. I was taking 10,000 IU of Vitamin D a week but my levels didn't really improve. I'm dehydrated constantly (even before I started drinking coffee) and no amount of water really keeps me hydrated (I also tried to maintain a decent salt level as well to improve absorption). My brother has similar absorption problems and stomach problems (I.B.S. or something). Overall, I'm in relatively good health, but the coffee makes me jerky and a little weak in the knees and it reminded me that I should take better care of myself.
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jimmylegs
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Re: What's the verdict on coffee?

Post by jimmylegs »

ok well if it's any consolation, i was surprised by a huge jump in vit d3 absorption after i worked on my magnesium and zinc status.

the zinc was the biggest change, the magnesium improvement small by comparison, but between them my vit d3 absorption more than tripled. (update: probably the work i had done on magnesium status was actually a more important factor in my much improved dose response to vit d3)

ie before working on minerals i could take x amount of d3 and expect my serum level to jump by 50 nmol/L. after working on minerals, the same D3 dose rocketed my level up by 170 nmol/L. it was crazy.

see if you can find this zinc (it's properly blended w copper)
http://ca.iherb.com/Solaray-Zinc-Copper ... Caps/19000

and some magnesium GLYCINATE like the ones i linked to above.

mag and zinc rich foods:
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... nt&dbid=75
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... t&dbid=115

question about your dehydration situation, and the comment 'no amount of water' - what kind of water do you drink most often? tap? well? bottled? filtered?

one other thing - what are you doing for essential fatty acids atm?
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CureOrBust
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Re: What's the verdict on coffee?

Post by CureOrBust »

The following are just my observations on myself.
Luongo wrote:I'm hearing conflicting things about how that fits into a responsible MS diet.
It is one of the ingredients in Prokarin, which is a working treatment for some. I personally didn't respond to Prokarin. However, I use caffeine to help me exercise longer.
Luongo wrote:I read that coffee is a rich source of antioxidants (okay... that's good!)
I use energy drinks, or pure caffeine tablets.
Luongo wrote:but it severely dehydrates me and feeling constantly dehydrated seems to be common in PwMS (that's all bad) so it seems exacerbating.
Dehydration should be easy to reverse. ie drink more water or non diuretic drinks.
Luongo wrote:And finally, I feel just plain weird after I drink coffee. If I finish my coffee at 10 AM, by 3 PM or so to about 8PM I'm just a nightmare to be around. An irritated (and irritating) and just plain mean person at times. I don't know if it winds up my emotional lability or if it's just the irritability of a normal coffee crash but it's really not a state of being I enjoy feeling.
15 years ago, I noticed that when I have tried simply caffeine with no alcohol and go out, I am not as sociable as I am without it (although still a little more willing to move, ie stimulated and not grumpy or such. just less interested in mixing with friends or strangers)
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Luongo
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Re: What's the verdict on coffee?

Post by Luongo »

jimmylegs wrote:question about your dehydration situation, and the comment 'no amount of water' - what kind of water do you drink most often? tap? well? bottled? filtered?

one other thing - what are you doing for essential fatty acids atm?
Thanks for the info... I forgot to mention that I also have the GERD 'cough' with no heartburn.

Usually I just drink water from the tap run through a Brita filter. Or the water fountain if I'm at work. Nothing special.

Mostly leafy vegetables for the essential fatty acids. Spinach, lettuce... generally what would be in a salad.
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jimmylegs
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Re: What's the verdict on coffee?

Post by jimmylegs »

ok interesting - so, potentially another case of LES functioning poorly, but in your case it doesn't sound like it's due to weakness from lying down right after taking highly absorbable mag.. i suspect the LES can fail to close properly from spasticity as well (just getting my head around that in the literature atm)

re the water, won't be super mineral rich, but at least it doesnt sound like RO so that's good :)

re EFAs - how do you feel about fish oils?
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Luongo
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Re: What's the verdict on coffee?

Post by Luongo »

jimmylegs wrote:ok interesting - so, potentially another case of LES functioning poorly, but in your case it doesn't sound like it's due to weakness from lying down right after taking highly absorbable mag.. i suspect the LES can fail to close properly from spasticity as well (just getting my head around that in the literature atm)

re the water, won't be super mineral rich, but at least it doesnt sound like RO so that's good :)

re EFAs - how do you feel about fish oils?
Sorry about the late response!

re EFAs

Fairly ambivalent. I'm definitely open to them and try to work in plenty of fish naturally into my diet but my skepticism about these minerals/vitamins/nutrients actually being absorbed in a substantive way means that I'm not very diligent about being consistent.

Nutrients, stomach problems, malabsorption, blood problems, dehydration, an unstoppable, completely runaway metabolism... I feel like there are so many pieces here that fit together but I certainly don't have the knowledge to do so.
ElliotB
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Re: What's the verdict on coffee?

Post by ElliotB »

They are called ESSENTIAL fatty acids because they have been deemed essential.

By definition:

"Essential fatty acids, or EFAs, are fatty acids that humans and other animals must ingest because the body requires them for good health but cannot synthesize them"

Are they important? I think so!
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