Supplements

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Supplements

Postby Albhoy » Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:32 pm

For those who are interested, Dr Tom Gilhooly, a GP who runs a private ms clinic in Scotland has put together a supplement which is made up of a number of vitamins, minerials etc. that many people buy individually. He calls it "MS baseline". For more info see web site address below. I'm just about to buy a 3rd batch along with MorEpa omega 3 tabs and a multi vit to go with the MorEpa called "omega spark". Don't know if it's doing any good for my ms, but my skin looks good..... :wink:

Al


http://www.theglasgowsolution.com
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thx

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:30 pm

good tip al :)
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pine bark in formulation

Postby ljm » Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:14 pm

This is the first time I've heard of pine bark, the link below provides overview from sloan ketterling, its too late tonight for me to follow very closely, is anyone else familiar with this supplement?
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/11571.c ... 568&tab=HC
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Postby Lyon » Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:54 am

oo
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another 2 cents

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:49 am

omg bob that's an amazing tale. i would be pretty suspicious of pyramid schemes too, but i can confirm that i have noticed drastic improvements in myself in times as short as one hour from adding a new element to my supplement regimen. but i am not all fixed, (YET!) just lots better overall.

i don't think we get enough nutrients from a balanced diet these days, unfortunately, and i think a diet can be balanced and still just not be enough. i can't see myself eating as much food in a day as the food guide recommends - i'd be an absolute house! and i suspect many are the same. i've read far too much about widespread deficiencies of this and that in the journals to think otherwise. my 2 cents :)
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I agree that pyramid is bad

Postby notasperfectasyou » Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:21 pm

but one needs to evaluate each pyramid operation based on the merits of the products. I think Avon is good stuff; but it is true that Avon is designed like a pyramid. I've got some stuff written about USANA in the Vitamin C thread that you might find interesting.

I agree with Jimmylegs that supplements can and do help. Cure? very unlikely - then again there's the Netherlands thread that i've not had time to follow up on. I think Jimmylegs know's a lot about this sort of stuff and I'd not entirely write-off the concept of taking sups. Then again, I'd not depend on them either. Read aout them, there is a fair amount of science on Sups and MS - meaning, real articles in real medical journals based on real research.

ciao, napay
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wow thx!

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:41 pm

napay, coming from you with your detailed level of research, that is such a compliment!!! thanks much! :D
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Postby Lyon » Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:48 pm

oo
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the beauty of the boards

Postby notasperfectasyou » Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:57 pm

Lyon and Jimmy.....

We cannot continue in this mutual admiration thing, it embarresses me. You are very welcome. OT, I'm delayed in my 102 post because I'm planning a family vacation to Boston! If anyone lives there and can share idea's about parking near the key sites, I'd love to know.

The beauty of the boards is everyone can say what they need to say, unless of course they want to make a joke about alternative lifestyles. that too was OT, sorry. My point, I fully understand the distrust and I understand looking for credibility. May folks get very far in life on having a solid sense for judging the character of others. I'm not going to argue agaist that. i accept it as one way of disernment.

I feel that it's useful to take that method a step further and to test the views of others against known scientific fact. Obviously, we can't test everything in a lab, but we can read related information to see if the logic builds links. I've mentioned USANA. I'll also mention Ambrotose. I've not yet been able to link it's purported benefit to the cellular issues of MS. I've been able to link up USANA and vit C. This don't mean that one is good and the other is bad. It just means that it's harder to find good scientific info about ambrotose.

On megadoses. I understand what you're saying and our Neuro would completely agree that all you need is a multi-vit a day. This is conservative medicine in the new legal environment of malpractice and hot coffee suits. But, if that's the case, why are researchers testing supplements against a wide array of illnesses? It's not just about the lousy diet our fast paced lives leave us with. I'm not saying listen to all the claims either. I think most of them are false. But, the research folks are testing supplements against diseases and there is success out there, you just need to take the time to find the articles. Pick a vitamin or mineral, go to the Journal of Immunology site and search all highwire journals for it along with the words multiple sclerosis. You are likely to get hits. napay
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Re: Supplements

Postby NHE » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:59 pm

ljm wrote:This is the first time I've heard of pine bark, the link below provides overview from sloan ketterling, its too late tonight for me to follow very closely, is anyone else familiar with this supplement?

I've posted some information below from the Health Notes website. There are two things I should note that are in contrast to the overly positive information from Health Notes. The first is that at least one author, Dr. Nicholas Perricone in his book the Perricone Prescription, has indicated that grape seed extract is the preferred form of Proanthocyanidin supplement as compared to pine bark extract. The second point, and perhaps the more important one with respect to MS, is that there has been some research published which indicates that grape seed extract has been found to increase interferon-gamma which would make it contra-indicated for MS. Please refer to my prior post on this topic which can be found in this thread.

An additional point is that there are some antioxidants which are likely to be beneficial for MS. These include epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG) from green tea, R-Lipoic Acid, and curcumin from turmeric. It's interesting to note that one thing all of these three antioxidants have in common is that they have been reported to inhibit the activity of the NF-kB transcription factor which is responsible for producing proinflammatory cell signaling proteins.

Anyways, here's the info from Health Notes:

Proanthocyanidins

What are they?
Proanthocyanidins—also called "OPCs" for oligomeric procyanidins or "PCOs" for procyanidolic oligomers—are a class of nutrients belonging to the flavonoid family.

Proanthocyanidins have antioxidant activity and they play a role in the stabilization of collagen and maintenance of elastin—two critical proteins in connective tissue that support organs, joints, blood vessels, and muscle (1, 2). Possibly because of their effects on blood vessels, proanthocyanidins have been reported in double-blind research to reduce the duration of edema after face-lift surgery from 15.8 to 11.4 days (3). In preliminary research, proanthocyanidins were reported to have anti-mutagenic activity (i.e., to prevent chromosomal mutations) (4).

Proanthocyanidins have been shown to strengthen capillaries in double-blind research using as little as 100 mg per day (5). In another double-blind trial, French researchers reported that women with chronic venous insufficiency had reduced symptoms using 150 mg per day (6). In another French double-blind trial, supplementation with 100 mg taken three times per day, resulted in benefits within four weeks (7).

Proanthocyanidins (200 mg per day for five weeks) have improved aspects of vision (visual performance in the dark and after exposure to glare) in healthy people (8, 9). A product that is high in proanthocyanidins has been shown to prevent and reverse abnormal blood clotting in smokers (10).

Where are they found?
Proanthocyanidins can be found in many plants, most notably pine bark, grape seed, and grape skin. However, bilberry, cranberry, black currant, green tea, black tea, and other plants also contain these flavonoids. Nutritional supplements containing proanthocyanidins extracts from various plant sources are available, alone or in combination with other nutrients, in herbal extracts, capsules, and tablets.

Proanthocyanidins have been used in connection with the following conditions (refer to the individual health concern for complete information):

Science Ratings · · · Health Concerns
3Stars · · · · · · · · · · Chronic venous insufficiency
2Stars · · · · · · · · · · Capillary fragility
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Retinopathy
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Sunburn
1Star · · · · · · · · · · · Pancreatic insufficiency
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Varicose Veins

3Stars: Reliable and relatively consistent scientific data showing a substantial health benefit.
2Stars: Contradictory, insufficient, or preliminary studies suggesting a health benefit or minimal health benefit.
1Star: For an herb, supported by traditional use but minimal or no scientific evidence. For a supplement, little scientific support and/or minimal health benefit.

Who is likely to be deficient?
Flavonoids and proanthocyanidins are not classified as essential nutrients because their absence does not induce a deficiency state. However, proanthocyanidins may have many health benefits, and anyone not eating the various plants that contain them would not derive these benefits.

How much is usually taken?
Flavonoids (proanthocyanidins and others) are a significant source of antioxidants in the average diet. Proanthocyanidins at 50–100 mg per day is considered a reasonable supplemental level by some doctors, but optimal levels remain unknown.

Are there any side effects or interactions?
Flavonoids, in general, and proanthocyanidins, specifically, have not been associated with any consistent side effects. As they are water-soluble nutrients, excess intake is simply excreted in the urine.

At the time of writing, there were no well-known drug interactions with Proanthocyanidins.

References:
1. Mitcheva M, Astroug H, Drenska D, et al. Biochemical and morphological studies on the effects of anthocyans and vitamin E on carbon tetrachloride induced liver injury. Cell Mol Bio 1993;39:443–8.

2. Maffei F, Carini M, Aldini G, et al. Free radical scavenging action and anti-enzyme activities of procyanidines from Vitis vinifera. A mechanism for their capillary protective action. Arzneimittelforschung 1994;44:592–601.

3. Baroch J. Effect of Endotelon in postoperative edema. Results of a double-blind study versus placebo in 32 female patients. Ann Chir Polast Esthet 1984;29:393–5 [in French].

4. Liviero L, Puglisis E. Antimutagenic activity of procyanidins from vitis vinfera. Fitother 1994;65:203–9.

5. Dartenuc JY, Marache P, Choussat H. Resistance Capillaire en Geriatrie Etude d’un Microangioprotecteur. Bordeaux Médical 1980;13:903–7 [in French].


6. Delacroix P. Etude en Double Avengle de l’Endotelon dans l’Insuffisance Veineuse Chronique. Therapeutique, la Revue de Medicine 1981;27–28 Sept:1793–802 [in French].

7. Thebaut JF, Thebaut P, Vin F. Study of Endotelon in functional manifestations of peripheral venous insufficiency. Gazette Medicale 1985;92:96–100 [in French].

8. Corbe C, Boissin JP, Siou A. Light vision and chorioretinal circulation. Study of the effect of procyanidalic oligomers. J Fr Ophtalmol 1988;11:453–60.

9. Boissin JP, Corbe C, Siou A. Chorioretinal circulation and dazzling; use of procyanidolic oligomers. Bull Soc Ophtalmol Fr 1988;88:173–4, 177–9 [in French].

10. Puetter M, Grotemeyer KHM, Wuerthwein G, et al. Inhibition of smoking-induced platelet aggregation by aspirin and pycnogenol. Thromb Res 1999;95:155–61.

Copyright © 2006 Healthnotes, Inc. All rights reserved. www.healthnotes.com

Note: To access the Health Notes website, you'll need to go to another website first which carries a subscription for Health Notes. There are many of these available. One such site is http://www.supersupp.com click on the link for Health Notes in the left hand column.

NHE
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Postby Lyon » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:28 pm

oo
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answer to bob

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:03 pm

hiya bob, i hear you wrt changing your initial post - which i didn't even see! it is touch and go conveying jest on here even with the smileys. i continued on a pre-existing jokey trend in one thread here, and got so stomped on that i couldn't even bring myself to acknowledge it with a response. i just didn't know where to begin!

anyway, on to business. i can totally see the helminth being applicable. and regardless of my obsession with supplements, i know that one single supplement is not going to be the answer all by itself. for instance i am so interested in vitamin d, but have noticed my biggest measurable improvement with b vitamins.

my problem here is as we've discussed before - do i have ms at all? the doctors say yes. they would and have discounted my assertion that there is a nutrition issue involved. if i went by their rules, i wouldn't be able to type right now! is that misdiagnosis? or is it just that most ms patients don't have such a clear cut dietary situation as i had, and so don't question what they are told?

i have to disagree with the notion of a "cure" having consistent results for everyone, bob. ms so different in each patient that i don't expect the answer will be the same for everyone. therefore we can all be "right"hehehe

so anyway, as i've said before, i wonder: does anyone have "ms"? or does each patient have a personalized combination of nutritional and/or parasitic deficiencies and/or simultaneous infections of various kinds?
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Postby Lyon » Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:32 pm

oo
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My Netherlands daughter...

Postby Chris55 » Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:37 am

...continues to experience dramatic improvements! As I have said, all of her symptoms are showing up in reverse. Then they seem to go away for good. I am not some "nut" who does not support the medical industry--I DO! But I have had many of my own successes with alternative treatments--some because the medical community had nothing to offer me. I completely cure a yeast infection with nothing but Vitamin E capsules. I completey cure Intersistial Cystitis with a severe change in diet and supplements. I completely cure severe congestion with diet changes and a humidifier.

I think because of the devastating nature of MS, we assume we must have powerful drugs to treat it. After MUCH reading/research, I am convinced that research does NOT want to find a cure---only treatments. (This would apply to most medical conditions. No money in a cure.) I believe there are many better drugs in the testing phase that are being suppressed by the current CRAB (+Tysabri) drugs because once something more effective--and safer--hits the market, these drugs are dead. I do not believe MS is "one, identical" disease. The current drugs only treat symptoms and their efficacy is impossible to guage.

MOST IMPORTANT...I believe those afflicted with this hideous disease must take a very active, informed part in their treatment! I believe that is what goes on on this forum and I think the service it provides is invaluable! I contiue to pray daily for all of you! Of all the trials and tribulations of my life--and I have had many--I do not think I have ever accepted this diagnosis of my beautiful daughter gracefully! I don't know that I ever will. I am sure she would tell you I am the "ultimate, nagging mom"--and I probably am!

Hope you all have a wonderful day with beautiful blessings. My heart is always with all of you!
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Re: Supplements

Postby NHE » Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:18 pm

Chris55 wrote:The current drugs only treat symptoms and their efficacy is impossible to guage.

I believe that this statement is mistaken. While there are many drugs available to treat symptoms, the crabs state that they are not for symptom management.

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