1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby THX1138 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:30 pm

JL, The Magnesium bisglycinate just arrived. :-D
I hope that bis part doesn't affect anything, making the magnesium glycinate anything less than admirable.
The product is : https://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-albion-chelated-magnesium-glycinate-133-mg-180-caps
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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby Scott1 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:56 pm

Hi,

The muscle spasms and spasticity, the low energy and the brain fog are all indicative of problems utilising ATP. I can’t stress that enough. The simplest way of looking at it is what you demand at any point in time for energy is not being meet by what you can supply.

ATP is adenosine triphosphate. It’s synthesised in the mitochondria through a process called oxidative phosphorylation. That system works like a recycling factory. It takes ATP that has spent a phosphate molecule (so it becomes ADP - adenosine diphosphate) and adds a phosphate molecule back so it can be spent again. If the machinery is compromised it starts to chew itself up, cannibalising bits of ADP and AMP (adenosine monophosphate) in a scramble to make ATP. The bits it can’t use in the attempt break down into simpler components called purines. They wash from the cell and a downward spiral commences as the supply diminishes.
There’s two main ways that can happen; the feedstock going into the mitochondria for ATP (pyruvate from glycolysis) doesn’t get enough oxygen and coverts to lactic acid or there is not enough electrons being feed through oxidative phosphorylation. An example of the first part at work happens when you see an elite athlete busting his gut suddenly spasm and go rigid as he is burning ATP faster than he can input oxygen.
In the second way, the electrons are donated by fatty acids and are passed down the inside of the mitochondrial membrane by molecules that can be both acceptors and donors of electrons. (Just think CoQ10 for this). It is this second way that rapidly restores ATP. The phosphate is inorganic and comes from your bones that are constantly degrading and renewing.
Magnesium is critical to this. It is bound to the negative charge of the phosphate groups.
The whole reaction formula looks like this-

MgATP + H20 = MgATP + Pi +H+. The reaction can run in both directions. It is called the ATPase reaction. (I keep forgetting how to sub/superscript)

The third way is the ADP can’t get across the mitochondrial membrane and neither can the ATP get out. That needs a process using acetyl-CoA and carnitine combining into acetyl-l-carnitine which acts like a shuttle that those molecules can bind to and cross the membrane.

Why is it important? Because it is the main metabolic reaction in nearly every pathway in your body. If ATP formation is compromised then you have a metabolic mess.

If you have a source of inflammation then your body’s reaction is to treat it like it’s a foreign particle and release heaps of free radicals that can bind to the invading molecule and neutralise it. Superoxide is the normal product but it can go into overdrive and make hydrogen peroxide (think hair going white) or worse peroxynitrite which very aggressive and volatile (as well as other types).

Those free radicals can interfere with normal function. They can promote loss of function of normal pathways and are central to the damage we call ageing.

Does this have anything to do with what you call blood volume problems? In a sense, yes.

Blood has haemoglobin. That’s the iron containing protein and oxygen binds to it. That is how the oxygen is transported to all our muscles and organs. If you constrict the blood vessels by allowing free radicals to do damage then the supply of oxygen is compromised and you create localised ischemic events throughout your body. The problem is ischemia leads to a rapid degradation of ATP into purines. Building pyruvate, oxygen, fatty acids and phosphate back up into ATP takes a long time. As ATP is fundamental to nearly every function you become very compromised. Muscles can’t release, fatigue develops and normal metabolism starts to fail.

So for a start I would take at least 300mg of CoQ10 and 2000mg twice daily of acetyl-l-carnitine. I would also take magnesium but JL can give advice on the style you should use.

Try it and see what happens. Don’t expect a really transformative overnight reaction (although that’s possible) as it depends where your ATP production sits.

So that’s enough on ATP.

What we can see that you have described is vasodilation helps how you feel. The niacin helps but doesn’t last. Why? Because it is just intervention and that only works whilst you intervene. What you need is a longer lasting change.

The mechanisms driving vasodilation are quite complex. It can be driven by signalling from the autonomic immune system, the availability of Nitric Oxide, the synthases involved, mechanical problems and on and on.

The niacin works for you so I’d keep using it. You could also consider known vasodilators like L-arginine and its precursor L-citrulline.
L-arginine and acetyl-l-carnitine should work synergistically on erectile dysfunction (subject to other variables).

The good MS diets all push dark green leafy vegetables, some include beetroot and similar foods. They trigger the nitrite/nitrate pathway and that will aid vasodilation. You need to vasodilate, primarily to help oxygen transport but also to take the strain off the heart muscle so the muscle doesn’t thicken and also relieve the kidneys. That might help with dehydration. The good diets don't push gluten, dairy etc nor do they say eat refined sugar, drink alcohol, eat processed foods etc.

Just on Citrucel. Its mainly cellulose. Mesalamine is an anti-inflammatory drug. Have you tried ripe pears, figs, avocado etc for the roughage? You may be able over time to wean yourself off the anti-inflammatory. Constipation is listed as a side effect and anti-inflammatory drugs are famous for increasing vasoconstriction and elevating blood pressure. As Mesalmine can cause constipation then I would be really considering if that can be the cause of your dehydration. Maybe consult your doctor about that possibility.

I do think you are on the right track but you need to tweak it.

Regards,
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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby THX1138 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:04 am

So for a start I would take at least 300mg of CoQ10 and 2000mg twice daily of acetyl-l-carnitine.
.
How do you recommend taking these :?:
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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:34 am

your heads-up re bisglycinate:
http://bit.ly/2xwXb1v

in other more-or-less applicable 'news':

Hypomagnesemia inhibits nitric oxide release from coronary endothelium: protective role of magnesium infusion after cardiac operations (1998)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 7598000204

Magnesium causes nitric oxide independent coronary artery vasodilation in humans (2001)
http://heart.bmj.com/content/86/2/212.short

Mechanisms responsible for vasodilation upon magnesium infusion in vivo: clinical evidence. (2002)
http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/12635879

Magnesium infusion improves endothelium-dependent vasodilation in the human forearm (2002)
https://academic.oup.com/ajh/article/15 ... -dependent

Magnesium-induced vasodilation in the dorsal hand vein (2004)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 114.x/full

lots more out there in the lit, but that'll be that for now :)
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby THX1138 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:46 pm

With all this talk about magnesium causing vasodilation, it makes me think that's the mechanism by which the Magnesium IV transformed my walking a few years ago.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I ran into this one:
Central nervous system magnesium deficiency.
The similarity of the acute central nervous system demyelinating syndromes with reactive central nervous system Mg++ deficiency is reviewed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2001142

JL, How was the Mg bisglycinate other than the :sad: LES relaxation :sad: experiences :?:
Last edited by THX1138 on Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:07 pm

could be. nf re CNS article.
do check out the heads up above! ^
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby THX1138 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:20 pm

JL, How was the Mg bisglycinate other than the :sad: LES relaxation :sad: experiences :?:
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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:28 pm

i couldn't tell you, honestly. i didn't notice much besides side effects. i had been having such a good time with magnesium glycinate and it actually took me an entire year of brutal suffering to figure out that all my terrible new issues were due to the switch to bisglycinate. i've never really gone back and i'm more careful with magnesium in general, esp close to bed time, no matter what the form. i think i did permanent damage. i still have this pesky little chronic cough. i broke something in there :S
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
jimmylegs
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Posts: 10514
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby THX1138 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:44 pm

I feel for you.
Understandably, you weren't taking many notes or making many observations when you were going through agony.
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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:45 pm

you can probably find more detail in some of my older whingings about it. i was quiet while it was going on but once i figured it out i had a good old fashioned vent. eg http://bit.ly/2xZyegJ
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
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Posts: 10514
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby Scott1 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:59 pm

Hi,

Take the aceytl-l-carnitine morning and night .

My preference to take the CoQ10 is all at night so it has time to become involved in the electron transport chain whilst you are least likely to be drawing on it. Call it voodoo thinking. As a supplement, athletes often take it before and after aggressive exercise.

This little video might show more clearly why I think having enough ATP is important for muscle relaxation (magnesium is bound to the ATP, as a rule)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUBBW2Yb5KI

Regards,
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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby THX1138 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:10 pm

I'm thinking of getting these:
https://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-coq10-200-200-mg-90-caps
https://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-premium-acetyl-l-carnitine-500-mg-240-veg-caps?otherSize=SW1649
Would these be a good choice, or would you recommend something even better?
Also, will I need any other supplements to go along with these
?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Albion copper is on the way and I already have Albion zinc.
https://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson ... mg-60-caps
https://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson ... ize=SWU065

And I have started taking:
https://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson ... n-120-caps
https://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson ... g-180-caps
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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:05 pm

kk! to recap re magnesium (especially bisglycinate)
take mag supplements on an empty stomach to maximize bioavailability and minimize the chance of it complexing and becoming bound up with other nutrients.
still, do eat something soon after to push the mag down into the small intestine (primary absorption site). stay upright after eating for a while.
the overall idea being to keep magnesium from hanging about in your stomach on its own for too long, where it can potentially cause trouble if the wrong things become relaxed.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
jimmylegs
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Posts: 10514
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby Scott1 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:05 pm

Hi,

Everyone has a budget. Sometimes that's the overriding consideration. In terms of supplements or any processed food products that you put in your mouth, they should have been reviewed by a testing authority to ensure that they were manufactured using good laboratory practice. In other words- you get what you pay for and it is not tainted. The trouble is the world doesn't quite work that way. When I looked through the website I couldn't work out anything about how they were manufactured at all. Walk into a naturopath, health food shop, chemist etc and look at the brands behind the counter. If you have trouble walking perhaps ask someone to look for you.

In terms of the CoQ10, it should be in a soft gel capsule with d-alpha tocopherol. Like this one, where you can see the ingredients https://www.bioceuticals.com.au/product ... xcel-150mg

My preference is not so much about brand but rather that the product is as good a standard as you can get. That also means its packaged and stored correctly. I don't buy my supplements from the internet because I can't feel confident that what the label says is necessarily supported by good laboratory practice, good handling and good storage. As a result, I prefer the brands that the better health providers would use and generally you have to ask at the counter for them.

There are a lot of products on the market, as it is hyper competitive, but only some are practitioner brands. I'd rather stay with those.

You can, of course, try the ones you pointed out. The risk is they are no better than lollies. I've had that experience.

Regards,
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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby THX1138 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:01 pm

I'm going to try this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HRGN36S/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&th=1

Update, 09-26-2017 --I'm going with this one, instead, because it's liquid in a softgel instead of powdered form in a capsule.
Last edited by THX1138 on Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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