Interesting "bacteria" story...

If it's on your mind and it has to do with multiple sclerosis in any way, post it here.

Re: Hey Minai---

Postby Minai » Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:45 pm

Chris55 wrote:---your second web reference on the enzyme research was really interesting! You know there is recent research that indicates heart disease could be caused by an infection/inflammation. The same for Diabetes. Maybe we should send our neuros to the teeth doctor--LOL!


Yes, I just wish it was known, for sure, exactly which pathogens may be causing what with these enzymatic reactions...

That was the worst thing about the test...they can tell you that you are "extremely toxic," but that they haven't figured out the cause. Kinda like...hey!...kinda like, when one receives an MS diagnosis 8O

Agreed! But who knows...seeing all that our neuros must see, whether or not they aren't already going there, themselves :?:

Take care,

Minai :)
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Clarification

Postby Chris55 » Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:45 am

I do not take Periostat for "infection". That is why I take such a low dose. Also it does not act like an antibiotic. What it does is stops the action of my body sending too many enzymes to sites of inflammation (they think???) They aren't really exactly sure why it works.

Actually taking an antibiotic doesn't stop this action. It only works in the very low doses. That's why my interest in the MS Minocycline trials. They were pretty impressive! Don't remember the exact doses but do remember reading that they did not think the drug was acting as an antibiotic.

I feel in your case--as well as my daughter's and all of those on the antibiotic regimen--there IS some kind of bacteria at play. My daughter's was a strep bacteria (I think).

And as we all know, I just do not believe all MSers have the same medical condition.
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Postby LisaBee » Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:35 am

This periodontal link is pretty interesting. My "MS event" that lead to a diagnosis followed on the heels of a large tooth abcess that happened because of a periodontal problems, which have been an ongoing issue for me for probably nearly ten years. I was in good health and my teeth were in good shape until about my mid 30s. Then everything started going downhill. I recently had some antibiotic pellets put in my gums.
There have been numerous articles on the link between MS and mercury - studies have shown MS patients have more fillings, etc. and therefore had a higher dose of mercury. I often wondered if that might be an artefact - maybe MS patients had more fillings because of more problems with their teeth and gums, and any connection with mercury was maybe spurious. I don't know if it has really been looked at. I believe there have been linkages between tooth/gum problems and vitamin D, so I will go back and look for that.
Who knows? In any case, I am going to work harder on my teeth/gums and see what happens.
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Postby Chris55 » Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:31 am

First, my daughter, who has been diagnosed with MS, only has 1 or 2 fillings. Now--have you ever been put on Periostat? What is SO IMPORTANT is that it is NOT treating infection! When I was switched to the generic form recently, I developed an EXTREME case periodontal disease like nothing I have ever had in my life. Once I returned to the Periostat brand, my problems cleared in a matter of weeks. However, I did sustain damage (pockets that I haven't had since starting Periostat several years ago.)

Again, the very low dose of Periostat stops an enzyme action (they think--still not sure how/why it works.) The assumption is that my body sends too many enzymes in RESPONSE to inflammation caused by infection of course which only makes the situation worse (causing gum detachment, etc.) It does NOT treat problems caused by plaque so I still have to brush, floss and use my rubber tip.

Since Periostat comes from the Tetracycline family, as does Minocycline, thus my real interest in the Mino trials for MS. It is not inconceivable that too many enzymes are being sent in response to inflammation (caused by bacteria/virus?) in MS causing the problems with MS. In the Minocycline trial (10 patients for 3 years resulting in over 80% reduction in lesion rate with NO adverse side effects and of course, cheap as hell--$20 a month) the researchers did not think that the Mino was working as an antibiotic and really had no idea why it was beneficial.

But as I've said, now that Copaxone has snatched up Mino and no further trials with the Mino alone will be conducted and even the "warning" to doctors to NOT prescribe it lest they sully the purity of the Mino/Copaxone trial, we will probably never see Mino again! The injustice is sickening!

Anyway, this is all just a thought because of my experience with this truly wonderful "wonder" drug! I am amazed at how few dentists/oral surgeons are even aware of this drug! I go to both a dentist and oral surgeon--they work together. My own dentist didn't have a clue what it was!

Anyway, if you have never tried it, please URGE your dentist to look into it and hopefully PRESCRIBE it for you. It has literally saved my teeth!!!
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Postby LisaBee » Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:51 pm

I agree with you, the influence of periodontal problems on systemic health has probably been way underestimated, and dentists and oral surgeons are getting much more aggressive.

I talked with my dentist briefly about Periostat a while back. The feeling was that my perio problems were not yet "bad enough" for an oral therapy and that they wanted to try local antibiotic pellets and an aggressive cleaning regimen for me to follow at home. I have been loaded down with all sorts of gadgets to induce me to make more of an effort, which, I confess, up to now my intentions were better than my actions. Now I have to make the effort. We shall see. My followup is next month. If in spite of my diligence I do not show an improvement then maybe an oral therapy (and oral surgeon) will be the next step.

As to perio/teeth problem links with MS, I didn't mean to imply that they were universally observed, and I was expecting someone to make a note of MS coinciding with great teeth and gums! :)

One thing that does seem pretty common with MS, though, is that it is linked with inflammation. That could be from an infection, from wound healing from surgery or an injury, or something else. In my case, I focused on my mouth as a source for both chronic inflammation and a nasty abcess. I could certainly have some other issues (like gut problems since solved with avoiding gluten), but teeth are known issues for me. There has been interesting periodontal studies showing elevated inflammatory cytokines in blood of people with perio problems, plus an acute spike in inflammatory markers following dental work and teeth cleaning. I believe studies have shown that a prophylactic antibiotic (as a single high dose) taken before dental work reduced the markers for inflammation - I would have to double check my memory on that one though.

These studies made me want to take prophylactic antibiotics before any serious work on my teeth, given my personal history. The neuro was totally nonsupportive, but I found a non-neuro who was and wrote a prescription. I take the same recommended dosage for people with heart valve issues - I think it is 2 g amoxicillin single dose before dental work. This dose likely zaps the bacteria that get in the blood stream following dental work, and therefore indirectly reduces resulting acute inflammation - it is different than Periostat. So far I've had no relapses (it has been over 2 years) in spite of continued dental work. Perhaps it is all totally unrelated to MS, or perhaps it is related. I don't know. I felt it was worth doing, given what I had read about inflammation relating to dental procedures.

I am interested in where you heard/read that doctors are being told to not to prescribe Mino alone. I too was very distressed to find out there was no continuation of a mino-only arm in any further trials, in spite of its promise that it might have been at least as good as CRABs, with fewer adverse effects and a much lower cost. It would also take research into new areas.
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Mino & Stuff

Postby Chris55 » Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:40 am

I read SO MUCH it would be impossible to remember where I read the info on the Mino results. I remember being highly impressed--and even excited!-- with the results...then reading that the trial was now coupled with Copaxone (knew immediately that was the kiss of death!)...that a "new" trail was starting combining the two (I remember thinking "Haven't you idiots learned ANYTHING from the Avonex/Tysabri combination?") and then the last part...which made me want to puke...advising physicians NOT to prescribe Mino as it would prevent "pure" results from the Mino/Copaxone trial. I threw my hands up in the air at that news!

Going back to periodontal disease---I have 2 dogs, one a 17 year old dachshound and a small (4 lbs) chihuahua. Both have serious "teeth" problems. The 17 year old would be obvious and the chihuahua's genetic. Now, I have the best vets in the world! One who is actually retired knows everything in the world about animals. Both of my dogs have to take strong doses of antibiotics every month for 5 days--not to keep their teeth healthy but the prevent any bacteria from getting into the bloodstream and settling in a major organ and possibly killing the dog. Why wouldn't this be the same for humans?

Also read recently (here I go again!) that the medical field is looking at dogs for human treatments because they have so many similar ailments.

If you are benefiting from any kind of antibiotic treatment, you should give the Dr. Weldon treatment a shot. I have read the story and it is truly fascinating. I STILL contend that MS could be caused by a bacteria! If antibiotics help, then do we need to be rocket scientists???

Please keep me posted--and yes, you MUST floss and you must use your Xmas tree brush and you must use the rubber tip. I keep a small bottle of mouthwash by the couch and as I watch TV every night, I just dip the rubber tip in the bottle and go around my teeth. It has become such a habit to not do it is like not brushing my teeth! (Still think Periostat would help you a lot!) Chris
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