caffeine, anxiety and MS

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caffeine, anxiety and MS

Postby cervocuit » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:25 am

Hi everyone,

I’ve deteriorated so much the 3 last years. From being able to walk 3 km with a cane, to a wheelchair, whereas nothing has changed the previous 5 years. The only thing that has changed in my lifestyle during the 3 last years was multiple attempts to stop coffee, going on and off coffee for several weeks every times.I think is the worst thing to do.

There have been studies few years ago that have been overhyped with the claim that the more you drink coffee, the less you have MS.
Who have tried to drink more coffee to see if there was any “symptom improvement” ? Doesn’t that mean that coffee is BAD for MS ?

The thing is that those studies was retrospectives and have used questionaires, and what they have found was an association, not a causation, despite their explanation by a neuroprotective effect.

I am 200 % convinced of the relation between stress and MS, like many MSers i’ve met.
And guess what ?

It appears that anxiety disorder patients have increased caffeine sensitivity which leads to decreased consumption.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3862156

We are not equals to metabolize caffeine and people naturally modulate their coffee intake depending on their genetic.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press ... -drinking/

So doesn’t that mean that MSers (who are anxious), naturally avoid coffee because they are sensitive to it and because it’s BAD ?

I am personally very sensitive to coffee. It makes me feel more anxious. But I’m addict to the dopamine rush it gives. That’s why it’s hard for me to give up.

This post is also a contract with myself that hopefully will help me to definitively stop.

Regards
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution"
(Theodosius Dobzhansky)
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Re: caffeine, anxiety and MS

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:35 am

hey there very sorry to hear you've been in decline.

may i ask about your daily estimated milligrams of magnesium from whole unprocessed foods, plus any added via supplementation, and the specific dose per *capsule* (or tablet, whatever) per *serving* (bc sometimes one serving is two pills) and particular *form* specified on the label, of any magnesium supplement taken?

also, is there anything else (other than caffeine) that would be a red flag in terms of being a known depleter of magnesium stores?

and as for caffeine interactions with ms

Interactions between genetic, lifestyle and environmental risk factors for multiple sclerosis (2017)
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrneurol.2016.187
"factors such as use of nicotine or alcohol, cytomegalovirus infection and a high coffee consumption are associated with a reduced risk."

i'd personally be cautious with that info when figuring out a health strategy!
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: caffeine, anxiety and MS

Postby cervocuit » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:01 pm

Hi Jimmy,
I don’t count my intake of nutrients and I rarely take supplements. I just try to eat as healthy as I can, and I avoid dairy, except a little cheese, and I limit grains with gluten.
But thank for the advice, I will consider magnesium supplementation for a while. In addition to quit coffee, that will probably replenish my stores of magnesium.
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Re: caffeine, anxiety and MS

Postby koneall » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:20 pm

On top of MS I have hand tremor. I drink a lot of coffee. In the past I went 'cold turkey' which was a week of misery. Then I'm cured and vow never to drink coffee again. I'm trying again now because of the tremor. I'm a vet and spend half my day in surgery. I can control the tremor when I'm in surgery but the rest of the time it's quite noticeable. I was diagnosed with MS 4 months ago.


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Re: caffeine, anxiety and MS

Postby Zyklon » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:55 pm

I drink 250-350 ml coffee daily. I believe benefits of a good coffee outweighs the minor unwanted effects.

If I drink lots of coffee once (lets say 200+) it increases my anxiety and provides me more than enough energy. Please try different amounts with longer time between.
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Re: caffeine, anxiety and MS

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:50 pm

hi again c, maybe have a squint at the following info posted recently.

betaseron-f8/topic29601.html#p250883

might be an idea to optimize a few things, serum mag to start??

@koneall what is your daily dietary/supplemental mag intake iima?

for both of you to peruse

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... #foodchart

i go through so much of this:

Image

2 servings per box. currently working through a batch of homemade saag using 2 boxes. noms :)
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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jimmylegs
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Posts: 10912
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:00 pm

Re: caffeine, anxiety and MS

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:21 pm

as for caffeine as a therapeutic, i'd never go crazy on random non essentials before making sure all the essential ducks were properly in a row.

neither do i avoid it, however - generally have one black tea and two coffees per day. two coffees is what fits in my french press (represents close to a litre). for a while i was up to 4 cups per day (2 full presses) but i dropped back bc sugar/fat.

can't handle it at all though, if i have to be out doing field work though. makes me pee way too frequently/urgently!! speaking of which, found this:

Caffeine Intake, and the Risk of Stress, Urgency and Mixed Urinary Incontinence
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 4711000206

"modest, significantly increased risk of incontinence at least weekly in women with the highest (greater than 450 mg) vs the lowest (less than 150 mg) daily intake (RR 1.19, 95% CI 1.06–1.34) and a significant trend of increasing risk with increasing intake (p for trend = 0.01). This risk appeared focused on incident urgency incontinence (greater than 450 vs less than 150 mg daily, RR 1.34, 95% CI 1.00–1.80, p for trend = 0.05) b"

looks like my 2 big cups (est almost 1000ml) puts me in the 400 mg caffeine ballpark. good to know!
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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jimmylegs
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Posts: 10912
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:00 pm

Re: caffeine, anxiety and MS

Postby Scott1 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:40 am

Hi,
I drink two black coffees a day but I also take plenty of magnesium . I gave up wondering if it was good or bad when I found I liked it.

The context might be relevant. I sit at a coffee shop, read the paper and chat to people. It's not being taken as a stimulant to help me get through the day.

No one sits around drinking coffee while a researcher measures the caffeine in the cup and how our body responds. What we mean by coffee also seems to change depending on where you are in the world; it can be short, thick, black and sweetened with sugar right through to a bucket sized paper cup of instant stuff diluted with water and milk. I doubt there's a standard measure of what is a cup of coffee.

Why, where and how you drink it might be more relevant than the coffee itself.

Regards,
Last edited by Scott1 on Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: caffeine, anxiety and MS

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:04 pm

mag's a great way to help compensate for urinary losses. (i almost just typed loesses lol that would be a weird finding!!)
just finished my atypical extra caffeine serve of the day - library chocolate coffee (poor man's mocha - hot chocolate powder in plain old coffee).
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 10912
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:00 pm

Re: caffeine, anxiety and MS

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:02 pm

all the things peed out after that delicious, delicious coffee. luckily we are good at replacing :D

The effect of dietary caffeine on urinary excretion of calcium, magnesium, sodium and potassium in healthy young females (1984)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 1784801323
"...The increased output of calcium and sodium was mainly due to significantly increased urinary calcium and sodium concentrations, while the increased output of magnesium appeared to be due to the combination of both a slightly increased urinary magnesium concentration and volume. Total urine volume correlated significantly with dose of caffeine per body weight when 300 mg of caffeine was consumed. The effects of caffeine on mineral excretion were primarily due to changes in mineral concentration and increased urinary volume at one and two hours."

Acute effects of dietary caffeine and sucrose on urinary mineral excretion of healthy adolescents (1988)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 1788800551
"Caffeine increased total three hour post treatment urinary calcium from 16.0 mg to 20 mg (without sucrose) and 29.6 mg (with sucrose). Sodium, chloride and potassium excretion were also increased after caffeine ingestion, but not phosphorus and magnesium. ... The presence of caffeine and sucrose in a soft drink increased the 3 hour total urinary calcium excretion compared to a caffeine-free drink with a non-nutritive sweetener."

The effect of dietary caffeine on urinary excretion of calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, sodium, potassium, chloride and zinc in healthy males (1985)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 1785800713
"Total urinary three hour excretion of calcium, magnesium, sodium and chloride increased significantly after caffeine intake, while zinc, phosphorus, potassium, creatinine and volume were unchanged. The increased outputs were due to increased urinary mineral concentrations."

Acute effects of dietary caffeine and aspirin on urinary mineral excretion in pre- and postmenopausal women (1988)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 1788801246
"180 ml decaffeinated coffee to which 0, 3 or 6 mg/kg body weight caffeine had been added. Caffeine increased three hour total urinary calcium excretion from a baseline value of 10.8 to 15.9 and 17.8 mg, respectively. Sodium and magnesium excretion were also increased after caffeine ingestion. Phosphorus, chloride, potassium, creatinine and urine volume were not different after caffeine consumption."

Effects of dietary caffeine on renal handling of minerals in adult women (1990)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 059090616Y
"...urine output of water, calcium, magnesium, sodium, chloride, potassium and creatinine increased in the two hours following caffeine ingestion when compared to the control beverage. Increased urinary mineral (mg)/urinary creatinine (g) ratios were seen for calcium (120 to 200), magnesium (70 to 110), sodium (3,800 to 6,200) and chloride (9,200 to 14,800), following the caffeinated beverage. "
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 10912
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:00 pm


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