Going though a relapse

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Going though a relapse

Postby 81Charger » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:34 am

Hi all I'm going through a relapse which I'm sure some feel is no big deal. This my third relapse in the last ten years and my question is, what else can I do to get over this sooner. The last time I had 5 days of IV steroids, is that pretty much my only option. I've read rest but I'm self employed and this time of year especially rest isn't an option. I haven't been sleeping well because I'm worried about everything. My wife wants to give me melatonin for sleep would that be OK to take. Just looking for any tips or advice.

Thanks Glenn
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Re: Going though a relapse

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:29 am

hi sorry to hear about your relapse :S

question:

have you been allocating you daily magnesium intake to match
1. standard public health recommendations for your age group OR
2. 7 mg/kg body weight (lower end of recommended daily intake range for western lifestyles)
3. 10 mg/kg body weight (upper end of that same range)?

if so, mag status may not play into your current issues.

if not, some things to consider:

Dietary magnesium deficiency decreases plasma melatonin in rats (2006)
http://www.jle.com/fr/revues/mrh/e-docs ... icle.phtml

The effect of magnesium supplementation on primary insomnia in elderly: A double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trial (2012)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3703169/
"...in the experimental group, dietary magnesium supplementation brought about statistically significant increases in sleep time (P = 0.002), sleep efficiency (P = 0.03), concentration of serum renin (P < 0.001), and melatonin (P = 0.007), and also resulted in significant decrease of ISI score (P = 0.006), sleep onset latency (P = 0.02) and serum cortisol concentration (P = 0.008)."

related recent chats

1. betaseron-f8/topic29601.html#p250883

2a (start of the story) general-discussion-f1/topic29623.html#p250936
2b (happy ending) general-discussion-f1/topic29623.html#p250969
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!
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Re: Going though a relapse

Postby 81Charger » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:51 am

I'm 80 kg's and I take 200 mg most days. Somedays I only get 100mg, so I should be taking much more of that.

Thank you for your reply
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Re: Going though a relapse

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

np.

200 mg of what specific form iima?

and re dietary, which are your most routine daily food sources? good high density options in the mix?
some animal source options http://bit.ly/2BumPY8
and veg sources http://bit.ly/2kU4zfO
veg sources organized by nutrient density http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... #foodchart

(be sure to boost healthy food sources; cofactors are built in!)
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!
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Re: Going though a relapse

Postby 81Charger » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:24 pm

I follow the swank diet and I avoid dairy and eggs.
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Re: Going though a relapse

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:44 pm

ok i have no idea whether swank delivers on daily mag requirements.

i do know what daily mag needs are though, and which foods provide meaningful sources as per the links provided above.

still curious what form is the supplemental 200 mag. oxide? 'chelate'? sulfate? citrate? aspartate? a blend of several? threonate? glycinate? bisglycinate? need i continue?
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!
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Re: Going though a relapse

Postby Scott1 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:08 pm

Hi,

Every relapse is a big deal. Experience has taught me that its unwise to think that you will just shrug it off.

What symptoms are showing up?

I get the issue with being self employed but is there anyway you can get some assistance from someone. Maximising the dollars is important but not if it impacts on future earning capacity.

Regards,
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Re: Going though a relapse

Postby 81Charger » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:05 am

I'm going after work today for some IV steroids. My neuro finally called me back and set it up. It's the worst part of running your own small business, can't really get a day off. The magnesium that I take is 250mg and says each one contains oxide, gluconate & lactate.
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Re: Going though a relapse

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:50 am

excellent info thx. a trial of up to 400 mg mag glycinate per day could be worthwhile (but again, best to emphasize mag rich foods first and foremost).

if you had not had a chance to click through re the highly relevant 2b below, here it is again:
general-discussion-f1/topic29623.html#p250969

also (not sure why mag glycinate was not selected for this comparison)

Study of magnesium bioavailability from ten organic and inorganic Mg salts in Mg-depleted rats using a stable isotope approach (2005)
http://bit.ly/2kEK9s0
"Eighty male Wistar rats ... received, for two more weeks, the same diet repleted with Mg ... as: oxide, chloride, sulphate, carbonate, acetate, pidolate, citrate, gluconate, lactate or aspartate ... Organic Mg salts were slightly more available than inorganic Mg salts. Mg gluconate exhibited the highest Mg bioavailability of the ten Mg salts studied."

why no mag glycinate? TBD.

related:

Speciation studies in relation to magnesium bioavailability. Formation of Mg(II) complexes with glutamate, aspartate, glycinate, lactate, pyroglutamate, pyridoxine and citrate, and appraisal of their potential significance towards magnesium gastrointestinal absorption (1987)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9300812967

"At usual therapeutic concentrations, pyroglutamate and pyridoxine do not coordinate magnesium in appreciable amounts, and glycinate and lactate do not form any neutral complex*. In contrast, glutamate, aspartate and citrate do form neutral magnesium species**; the extent of their expected effects with respect to magnesium uptake by enterocyte membranes is discussed on the basis of relevant computer simulations."

related questions:
* good thing bc these non neutral forms will want to interact?
** sounds less useful - good thing, bad thing or just one necessary piece of the overall puzzle?

@NHE this ^ looks like your alley, yes no maybe so?

now having sifted through the lit for studies examining magnesium glycinate in particular, i am quite surprised to note a distinct dearth of research attention. did find this however:

Magnesium Glycinate Supplementation in Bariatric Surgery Patients and Physically Fit Young Adults (2013)
http://www.fasebj.org/content/27/1_Supp ... b291.short
"... results obtained in this pilot work suggests that young fit adults, as well as people who have had bariatric surgery, tend to have less than optimal magnesium intake. The glycinate form of magnesium can improve magnesium status. In addition, in the pilot work, no reports were given of diarrhea, which can be a problem with some types of magnesium supplements."

ok great - now can we get a comparison to gluconate's bioavailability... (to date, short answer appears to be no)

so, from the above, looks like one of three of your product's components will be working for you most effectively.
question: does your label give a breakdown in terms of mgs per pill for each of oxide, gluconate and lactate?

whether it does or no, may well be a good idea to trial mag glycinate. the drain on your body's mag resources resulting from stress is nothing to take lightly!
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!
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Re: Going though a relapse

Postby Scott1 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:29 pm

Hi,

Usually IV treatment means a stay in hospital but I'm unsure if that's what you're doing. If you do have a stay they often run a set of blood tests to make sure they didn't miss something. If you can post those the people who follow those readings will be better armed to comment. Ideally the results are not bad. Mine weren't when I had a bad attack so they don't always correlate.

Regards,
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Re: Going though a relapse

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:48 pm

oh man it's jamieson isn't it.

check out its position in this top mag supplements ranking:
https://labdoor.com/rankings/magnesium

(hint: it's not there)

of the top 5 i like the looks of 3 and 4 best, but would be interested to hear cases made for 1, 2 and 5

another set of rankings, some repeat appearances:

https://bodynutrition.org/magnesium/

(again, jamieson distinctly absent)

one more assessment:

https://thoroughlyreviewed.com/health-b ... upplement/
http://bit.ly/2BB9b5J

more repeats re best quality. that last one has annoying popups, so the bit.ly version points to text only.

again, no jamieson. if it's any comfort, my currently-preferred mag glycinate product isn't on any of these lists either!!
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!
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Re: Going though a relapse

Postby NHE » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:23 am

jimmylegs wrote:Speciation studies in relation to magnesium bioavailability. Formation of Mg(II) complexes with glutamate, aspartate, glycinate, lactate, pyroglutamate, pyridoxine and citrate, and appraisal of their potential significance towards magnesium gastrointestinal absorption (1987)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9300812967

"At usual therapeutic concentrations, pyroglutamate and pyridoxine do not coordinate magnesium in appreciable amounts, and glycinate and lactate do not form any neutral complex*. In contrast, glutamate, aspartate and citrate do form neutral magnesium species**; the extent of their expected effects with respect to magnesium uptake by enterocyte membranes is discussed on the basis of relevant computer simulations."

related questions:
* good thing bc these non neutral forms will want to interact?
** sounds less useful - good thing, bad thing or just one necessary piece of the overall puzzle?


I would have to read the complete text to be certain, but to expand upon the part of the abstract you quoted...

Corresponding results are then used to assess the potential capacity of each of these ligands to mobilise Mg2+ ions into membrane diffusible complexes. At usual therapeutic concentrations, pyroglutamate and pyridoxine do not coordinate magnesium in appreciable amounts, and glycinate and lactate do not form any neutral complex. In contrast, glutamate, aspartate and citrate do form neutral magnesium species; the extent of their expected effects with respect to magnesium uptake by enterocyte membranes is discussed on the basis of relevant computer simulations. Potential calcium interactions are also examined, which required the determination of formation constants for calcium complexes with these three ligands.


The authors appear to be discussing membrane permeability. Only an electroneutral species will diffuse across the lipid bilayer. A charged species will require a transporter protein of some type, e.g., uniport, symport or antiporter.

By the way, here's a patent discussing the formation of chelates. It might make interesting food for thought as further reading.

https://www.google.com/patents/US6458981
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Re: Going though a relapse

Postby koneall » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:52 pm

I had my first attack 4 months ago. I follow a veggie diet with a small amount of animal protein, turkey or salmon. I take melatonin. I'm on tysabri, one infusion monthly. I've had no bad reactions to it.

kaypeeoh
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Re: Going though a relapse

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:48 pm

^^ interesting, will have to keep digging in to figure out what makes mag glycinate do the trick. haven't dug in on biochem specifics in quite a while. some fun animations out there.
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!
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Re: Going though a relapse

Postby Anonymoose » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:55 pm

Hi Glenn,

Sorry to hear you’re relapsing...horrible timing!! I *think* I may have stopped or majorly shortened a relapse with clemastine fumarate recently. I just took the normal dose for allergies and my symptoms receded to point of origin (top of foot) within hours. I kept taking it for a week and a half. It did take almost a full week for the numb spot on the top of my foot to go away. My relapses, the ones I can feel, usually run two months before I even start to recover. Maybe it was a fluke but maybe worth a shot anyway.

I buy clemastine fumarate at Walgreens (wal-hist) and on Amazon. Oh, and I don’t feel a difference in my every day ms symptoms when I take CF.

Hope you feel better soon!
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