Excessive water intake with MS

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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:23 am

i have a remineralizing countertop water filter (caught last day of a sale and no time to research - suckered) but it's such a hoax. no stats on post treatment mineral levels.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby ElliotB » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:08 pm

"no stats on post treatment mineral levels"

Very true, but the levels in water are likely low anyway and necessary levels can easily be made up through diet/supplements. Removing contaminants in the water, especially known dangerous ones is, IMHO, of prime importance, and there are likely many contaminants deemed at 'safe' by the government that probably aren't. Better to err on the side of caution!

There is likely no agreement of what the optimum levels should be anyway, and it appears that the mineral content of tap water varies greatly across different geographical locations anyway.
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:36 pm

yep there's a great WHO paper on minerals in drinking water and variation around the world plus within regions and for bottled water, by supplier. as i'm certain you can imagine, a far greater proportion of my mineral intake comes from diet and supplement sources than would ever be found in my water, with or without remineralization. definitely was zero fun back in the mineral-depleted days.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby Scott1 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:37 pm

Hi,

If you are using amitiza, milk of magnesia and suppositories then you will be drawing water into the gut and bowel with the aim of increasing the fluid in the bowel to soften stools. There's a real risk that you will end up with a lot of gut cramps, distension and pain. You could also become dependent on those medications. The issue they should treat, short term, is a loss of motility. Some medications that are described as "centrally acting" can stop that normal action by influencing the receptors that control motility (e.g. some blood pressure tablets). If that's what is happening it will take a couple of weeks to feel better when you switch from them.

The medications you're using are for constipation. Your stools should have become dry and hard therefore difficult to move to justify using them. As they attract the water to the bowel it's not surprising you need to increase your liquid to meet the requirements of the rest of your body. You use gatorade so I presume you sweat a lot whilst cycling and running and want to put the stuff you lost back.

The chlortalidone is a diruretic. You probably don't have a water retention problem causing swelling it's more likely a lymphatic problem. If your blood vessels narrow then the lymph that goes from them into the interstital space (gaps between cells) to clean up rubbish can't be reabsorbed. This happens because the fluid in the spaces has a lower pressure than the fluid in the blood vessels. You need to dilate the blood vessels to drop the pressure otherwise you swell.

The swelling can also indicate a loss of calcium homeostasis which suggests you need to increase your magnesium. (Ask JL the right way to do that as you don't need to end up with diarrhea.) You probably need to increase your potassium through food.

If you are putting on a layer of fat rather than fluid then make it a rule that you don't eat added sugar and see what happens. Naturally occurring sugar is fine.

If you have IBS then a FODMAP test probably isn't a bad idea.

Also read the manufacturers notes or the FDA notes for any medications you're on and specifically look for motility issues. They may be part of the issue.


If I was you, I'd stop running and cycling for a week and concentrate on how to be less reliant on those motility treatments. What worked for me was really increasing the water intake, eating foods high in potassium like bananas and avacodo , increase the magnesium intake and give up those sports drinks. Ripe pears, figs, apples, 6 prunes can all help motility. If you have IBS then take a really good probiotic that , ideally, has lactobacillus rhamnosus in it.

Find out more about where your blood pressure is and how it behaves. Sometimes it's not diet related. If you have necrosis and cavitation on your cervical spine then that interferes with the signalling that controls blood pressure. That's called autonomic dysreflexia. I can swing from 135/76 to 160/86 in minutes and then go back again. It's faulty signalling that does that. More, not less, water helps.

Regards.
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby chris12453 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:30 pm

Hi everyone,

I apologize for not getting back to respond in sometime. I was away for work, and stupid me thought I was done traveling when I switched job to become a municipal engineer. Low and behold, my firm took on a job that was in my wheelhouse as it had to do with what I did at my old job so away I went. With that, I am back here to work towards an answer as well as answer some questions.

So, with regards to the supplements I am taking and their strength and dosages:

- Co Q-10 (200mg x 2)
- Fish Oil - 1200mg plus 360mg Omega 3 (2 per day)
- Cinnamon (500mg x 2)
- Glucosamine Chondroitin (1500mg glucosamine and 1193mg mobili flex x 3)
- Magnesium (500mg x 2)
- Align Probiotic (1 perday) *Should be noted I will be speaking with my doctor about VSL #3.

So talking about the water intake. It has hit a new level. I can drink about 2-3 liters in an hour and still not quench. Its like a psychosomatic type thing now if I can be so bold. I will make this statement however. I don't know why or how it makes any sense, but over the last two or three months of this going into overdrive combined with stopping my testosterone injections, I have not been this strong, clear minded and decisive in a few years. At this point, I'm not sure how that works. My weakness and tiredness prior to is mostly gone, I am back on my trainer in the winter months now going full bore if you will without remorse or agony. This is the most excited I have been for a mountain biking season in a long while.

Right now, my primary doctor is fighting with my insurance company to get a CT of the abdomen and pelvis with and without contrast approved. It's funny how they just approve my mris and mra no problem, but they deem the "potential" issue that was shown on my t-spine mri as not a medical necessity.

Now, with regards to the constipation products I am on, I was diagnosed with IBS-C. Its funny because the first year and a half I was diagnosed I didn't have any issues, go figure I do agree that they do become a crutch after a while. The amitiza is a weird drug all on its own. I swear it stops working, I go off it for a while. I go back on and it works and then the same. Rinse and repeat. This biggest issue I see is that with this insane water intake, one would think I have plenty of water being pulled into the gut and bowels to make stool pass without issue or help (keep in mind I am strictly talking when I stopped the amitiza and mom). That just doesn't seem to occur. Scott, you mentioned signal issues and I have to agree with you that I believe that is the problem. However, I still cannot explain the water intake and the general lack of urination with such intake.

Let me ask this question, I don't know the answer obviously. I am taking in all of this water. I have a generally pretty good diet, nothing different over the last 8 years. Its the same diet I created and lost 100 pounds in about a year to year and half. I went from 275 to 175. Up until roughly 7 months ago I was down to 155 pounds, but now with all this water, and in about a month or two I have shot up to about 168 and it takes some hard work to shed back to at least 163. I may have mentioned it above, I am noticing this weight in my abdominal area. thoughts on this. I will admit I do have a scale issue and an additional to cardio workouts. I feel terrible when I stop for a day and the thought of a week off sounds awful.

In any event, I provided a good wall of text. Hope I answered everyone.

Thanks for the help.
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby Scott1 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:06 pm

Hi,

It's a bit of a conundrum. You've obviously changed a lot since you started to diet.

The only thing I can think of is get a full colonoscopy. That entails a full flush out and then in they go to inspect things. At my age I have one every 3-5 to check for polyps and get my prostrate measured. I had one before my big attack in 2014 and the comment was that I had not cleaned out properly as stuff was impacted. perhaps that is happening to you. A real inspection beats a scan.
The only thing I suggest is make sure they do not use succinylcholine or any anasthetic ending in 'ane' as people with MS are prone to malignant hyperthermia and that will trigger it. They have plenty of other choices.
It's going to be difficult to decide if the weight gain is indeed water or lympth. 1 liter=1 kilo if its water. I suspect it's lympth so you might need a little more magnesium and a little more CoQ10. Unless you have osteoarthritis, I'd try going without the glucosamine and see what happens.

Prior to my 2014 attack I was trialing n-aceytl-glucosamine and I am not prepared to go back as I feel it may have played a leading role in the attack. That form constitutes 50% of a bacterial cell wall (a peptidoglycan) and I may have been feeding the wrong bugs. (a guess)

Regards,
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:23 am

hi there, clarification question. you've been on the *same* diet in order to lose 100 lbs and since? or did you switch to a maintenance regimen once you reached target weight goals.

have you taken your plan to a dietitian for review? your essential nutrient needs will be a bit higher than average joe sedentary's. you'll want intakes to be in between rda minima and daily upper intake limits

can you give a bit more detail on the magnesium? which chemical form do the 500mg pills take?

intriguing that your serum d3 level is up near 70 ng/ml, with only mag and no supplemental d3 in your regimen. what's your approx latitude?

i don't see a multivit / multimin in your regimen. makes me even more curious re the tests i'd mentioned in an earlier post. worth investigating!
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby chris12453 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:08 pm

Let me see what I can answer or clear up here.

My diet has been going for about 8 years now. I've had my slips along the way and some changes and what have you, but by and large it has been very consistent. We are talking roughly the following. Keep in mind, I do change it up a bit. I am providing generalities and it doesn't mean I eat like this everyday. I generally eat a lot of chicken. Occasional burger, but I really havn't eaten red meats in about 4 or so years just lost the taste for it.

Morning (this actually never changes) - Dannon Okios Triple 0 Greek yogurt with blueberries or raspberries with granola
Lunch (currently and does change) - just a dannon okios greek yogurt, or english muffin (polanders sugar free jelly minimal amount), salads (do this quite a bit with balsamic vingear), oranges/mandarins, occasional buffalo chicken wrap (grilled chicken, low fat ranch)
Dinner: salads (tomatoes, cucumbers, green beans, hard boiled egg, onion, sweet pepper with balsamic vingear), lots of chicken and pork. There are you veggies/baked fries (occasionally)/some rices
Snacks (throughout the day I dont eat all of this everyday just for reference) - bananas, kellogs protein bars, celery sticks, carrots, prunes. At night sometimes yogurts, sugar free ice cream, special k series with fat free milks

I'm just going to say I don't think the glucosamine is the issue. I just recently started it again as I get ready for outdoor season of riding and pounding on the knees trail running. The issue predates that.

jimmy - I am a creature of habit, I generally do the same things. I have added in over the years during works outs, products from pacific health labs. Specifically there gels and accelerade supplements. Havn't taken them in a couple of months. The one thing that did just dawn on me, when I had my spinal tap back in December of 2015, that's when I dropped weight from 170-175 to 155 and I held all that weight off until this situation started occurring. I was on my back for a weak because my nuero caused a significant csf leak when he tried to get into the spinal area. We don't have an explanation for such a significant drop and why that happened. Food for thought.

I have not taken anything to a dietitian. With that said though, I am starting to go through my Wahls protocol book and recipe book and was going to start looking at that for guidance.

As far as the magnesium
https://www.amazon.com/Natures-Bounty-Magnesium-Supplement-Vegetarian/dp/B00H5PJ0HW/ref=sr_1_13_s_it?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1517085959&sr=1-13&keywords=magnesium&th=1

Lat and Long - 41.1541° N, 74.3507° W

I was looking into a multivit, but wasn't sure which to look into so I was doing some research. Hadn't settled on one as of yet.

The biggest issue as you can see from the labs I did post, everything and I mean everything comes back perfect. Most of the time, my doctors thinks I am clinically dead because my blood pressure is so amazing. Most people see a spike in their pressure at the doctor, mine is a rock. I am the outlier in the family as everyone else has extremely high pressure. Another thing I might not of mentioned is that my sister also has ms. We are 3 years apart in age (31 myself) but she has had it for 10 years now.
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:26 am

hi again. ok 1000mg mag oxide daily sounds like diarrhea which sounds like a recipe for dehydration. one step might be to invest in a more absorbable form. the multimineral (and multivitamin) would be an important step also. good that the fish oil is already in the mix.

i'm curious whether nuts/seeds, beans/lentils, and dark leafy greens make it onto your plate regularly.
probably would be worthwhile to take a three day diet diary (itemizing all food fluids meds and supplements) to a dietitian for review.

i'd love to see serum magnesium and levels for your other electrolytes, plus serum zinc, copper, and selenium if you can. i'd be looking hard at zinc in particular, where that csf leak is concerned. i was definitely still zinc deficient when i had mine. slow wound healing.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby chris12453 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:20 am

jimmy,

I am absolutely going to ask to have the levels you suggested test during my blood work. I will be getting this done after my CT scan (if my insurance ever stops fighting about it).

I regularly have salad blends that contain dark leafy greens. We also tend to mix in spinach and such into the salads as well. We occasionally put beans in the salads. I go on and off with pistachio nuts. Its not something regular, but I go on stretches where that's all I want to snack on.

What would be your suggestion for a magnesium supplement and multivitamin. I already deal with diarrhea just from the MOM and whatever other cocktail I drum up.
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:49 am

hi
cant get the volume of dark leafy greens needed in salad alone. not safely. why i continually emphasize cooked. sometimes an entire bunch = 1 serving!
if your current dlg scenario is inflexible then multimin will be key addition
try mag glycinate
for multivit/min make it high quality 3 per day, also high potency for active lifestyles
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby chris12453 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:58 pm

Hi Jimmy,

I will work on picking up some of your suggestions. I still have not gotten my CT approval. My doctor has to do a peer to peer with the insurance company. In a nutshell, they are trying to stick it to me for meeting my deductible for the year already (this occurred in January). They are deeming pretty much any test not necessary. Unfortunately for them, they are about to feel my wrath. Just like when I rip a contractor for doing shady work on a road resurface or a water main installation.
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby THX1138 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:58 am

Magnesium Oil is a Muscle’s Best Friend general-discussion-f1/topic29881.html
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:08 am

hi again. good luck rippin em a new one :)
if all else fails, there are some pretty affordable private testing entities out there. amazingly affordable in the US in particular, as far as i've seen to date.
in other places, once you venture beyond insurance coverage, more hoops to jump through it seems.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby chris12453 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:40 pm

Hi Jimmy,

So, finally after long last, I got this CT scan approved and done. My doctor did a top notch job making them look foolish that's all I can say. In any event, the report I received today revealed the following:

1. There is a 3 mm. calcification in the lower pole of the right kidney consistent with a non-obstructing right renal
stone. The left kidney is unremarkable. The liver, spleen, pancreas, adrenal glands and gallbladder are
unremarkable. There is no biliary dilatation.
2. There is a moderate amount of air seen in the transverse colon and adjacent segments of the ascending and
descending colons. There is some fluid in the rectosigmoid colon. The findings are nonspecific and may represent
mild ileus. There is no transitional point. There is no small bowel distension to suggest small bowel obstruction.
No colonic diverticulosis or diverticulitis is visualized. There is no retroperitoneal mass or adenopathy. No
abdominal ascites is visualized.
3. The pelvic portion of the study demonstrates no pelvic mass or adenopathy. The bladder, prostate and seminal
vesicles are unremarkable. The lung bases are clear. A few small Schmorl’s nodes are noted in the lumbar spine
and lower thoracic spine. There is a slight cortical bump seen involving the anterior lateral femoral head/neck
junctions bilaterally with a few small subchondral cystic changes. This appearance is nonspecific and can
sometimes be associated with femoral acetabular impingement.

I should be hearing from my primary tomorrow. Will setup an appointment then for this week and see how we are going to proceed. Get some blood work going and plug away at this.

Chris
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