Excessive water intake with MS

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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:49 pm

solid update! i will likely have more input on bloodwork results. for now, this oldie:

Effects of magnesium hydroxide in renal stone disease.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6764473
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby Scott1 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:35 pm

Hi Chris,

If it is mild ileus then the stuff you have been taking doesn't doesn't sound it will be any better than lots of water, fruit like apples, pears, bananas, figs etc and some magnesium. Restarting peristalsis needs a gentle approach. What you've been taking draws water into the gut and will make you feel thirsty. Taking a mild approach to recovery won't feel great but forcing the pace won't help much.

Regards,
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby NHE » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:34 pm

chris12453 wrote:1. There is a 3 mm. calcification in the lower pole of the right kidney consistent with a non-obstructing right renal stone. The left kidney is unremarkable. The liver, spleen, pancreas, adrenal glands and gallbladder are unremarkable. There is no biliary dilatation.

Have you been on antibiotics lately? Several years ago, I developed a kidney stone from the sulfonamide antibiotic Bactrim.
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby chris12453 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:23 am

Good morning,

I know its been a week or two since my last post. My doctor preferred I setup an appointment with him to go over the dizzying array of things going on. That said, we will be meeting this afternoon.

Couple of things to report since my last posting. I have forced myself down to once a day milk of magnesia (roughly 2 weeks now). Initial impressions and indications seemed good. I was seemingly heading towards an upward trend where I thought that maybe my water intake was a direct result of dehydration caused my the milk of magnesia. Unfortunately that was shorted live as this past weekend and so far through this week, water intake is back up. Additionally, something in my brain or what have you have decided I am hungry all the time. Not really sure what is going on their. In addition (and as I mentioned early on) I have been off my testosterone injections now since the beginning of January seemingly without ill effects. The only thing that still seems to remain from that is the acme breakouts I dealt with while on the injections. That's insignificant and for another day at this point.

Circling back to the cut down of the milk of magnesia, my bowels definitely don't respond as I recall them working prior to the ms or when I was bleeding milk of magnesia. I guess a IBS or something irritable bowel still exists. Whether that is stemming from what my CT showed or just the MS in general, I don't know.

Any way, that is the update for now.
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby THX1138 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:17 pm

I do take magnesium, fish oil, chondroitin and glucosamine, cinnamon, b12 supplements just for the record.
I just read that you take cinnamon. If one takes enough cinnamon it can be hard on the kidneys and the liver I believe. Coumarin is the substance that causes the damage. There's a lot of it in regular cinnamon. In Ceylon cinnamon there is very, very little coumarin, however.



Cinnamon Offers Health Benefits but Also Carries Serious Risks
Find out about the pros and cons of cinnamon: what it can do for good health, and how to use it best to reduce potential health risks.
https://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2013/12 ... ous-risks/
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby Scott1 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:51 pm

Hi Chris,

I don't really understand why you took so much milk of magnesia but that's history. I was put on a blood pressure medication at one stage that caused a loss of motility and it was difficult to resolve. In the end I fixed it by drinking a lot of water and adding a lot of things like, pears, apples, figs etc into my diet. I also increased the volume intake of general food. If I was really stuck then I inserted one of those gel suppositories but not often. The body does get very accustomed to being given assistance so doing without that is better. What your going through reminds me of that time.

My own experience is fruit and water are much more efficient than anything else but it can make you a bit desperate for quick relief till it starts happening.

Regards,
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby chris12453 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:14 am

Good Morning Everyone,

Blood results are in now. There wasn't much to report so I didn't want to flood the thread with other things at the moment. You have Test/Result/Flag/Units/Reference Interval.

Ordered Items
CBC With Differential/Platelet; Comp. Metabolic Panel (14); Thyroid Panel With TSH; Iron and TIBC; Testosterone,Free and Total;
Prostate-Specific Ag, Serum; Uric Acid; Magnesium; Copper, Serum; Zinc, Plasma or Serum; Ferritin, Serum; Selenium, Blood
TESTS RESULT FLAG UNITS REFERENCE INTERVAL LAB

CBC With Differential/Platelet
WBC 4.8 x10E3/uL 3.4 - 10.8
RBC 4.89 x10E6/uL 4.14 - 5.80
Hemoglobin 13.7 g/dL 13.0 - 17.7
Hematocrit 40.5 % 37.5 - 51.0
MCV 83 fL 79 - 97
MCH 28.0 pg 26.6 - 33.0
MCHC 33.8 g/dL 31.5 - 35.7
RDW 14.0 % 12.3 - 15.4 01
Platelets 260 x10E3/uL 150 - 379
Neutrophils 41 % Not Estab.
Lymphs 39 % Not Estab.
Monocytes 10 % Not Estab.
Eos 9 % Not Estab.
Basos 1 % Not Estab.
Neutrophils (Absolute) 2.0 x10E3/uL 1.4 - 7.0
Lymphs (Absolute) 1.9 x10E3/uL 0.7 - 3.1
Monocytes(Absolute) 0.5 x10E3/uL 0.1 - 0.9
Eos (Absolute) 0.4 x10E3/uL 0.0 - 0.4
Baso (Absolute) 0.1 x10E3/uL 0.0 - 0.2
Immature Granulocytes 0 % Not Estab. 01
Immature Grans (Abs) 0.0 x10E3/uL 0.0 - 0.1

Comp. Metabolic Panel (14)
Glucose 89 mg/dL 65 - 99
BUN 24 High mg/dL 6 - 20
Creatinine 1.03 mg/dL 0.76 - 1.27
eGFR If NonAfricn Am 96 mL/min/1.73 >59
eGFR If Africn Am 111 mL/min/1.73 >59
BUN/Creatinine Ratio 23 High 9 - 20
Sodium 142 mmol/L 134 - 144
Potassium 3.9 mmol/L 3.5 - 5.2
Chloride 99 mmol/L 96 - 106
Carbon Dioxide, Total 34 High mmol/L 18 - 29
Calcium 9.8 mg/dL 8.7 - 10.2
Protein, Total 7.1 g/dL 6.0 - 8.5
Albumin 4.7 g/dL 3.5 - 5.5
Globulin, Total 2.4 g/dL 1.5 - 4.5
A/G Ratio 2.0 1.2 - 2.2
Bilirubin, Total 0.3 mg/dL 0.0 - 1.2
Alkaline Phosphatase 65 IU/L 39 - 117
AST (SGOT) 69 High IU/L 0 - 40
ALT (SGPT) 33 IU/L 0 - 44

Thyroid Panel With TSH
TSH 1.630 uIU/mL 0.450 - 4.500
Thyroxine (T4) 7.2 ug/dL 4.5 - 12.0
T3 Uptake 25 % 24 - 39 01
Free Thyroxine Index 1.8 1.2 - 4.9

Iron and TIBC
Iron Bind.Cap.(TIBC) 330 ug/dL 250 - 450
UIBC 246 ug/dL 111 - 343 01
Iron 84 ug/dL 38 - 169 01
Iron Saturation 25 % 15 - 55

Testosterone,Free and Total
Testosterone, Serum 276 ng/dL 264 - 916
Adult male reference interval is based on a population of
healthy nonobese males (BMI <30) between 19 and 39 years old.
Travison, et.al. JCEM 2017,102;1161-1173. PMID: 28324103.
Free Testosterone(Direct) 7.4 Low pg/mL 8.7 - 25.1

Prostate-Specific Ag, Serum
Prostate Specific Ag, Serum 0.5 ng/mL 0.0 - 4.0
Roche ECLIA methodology.
According to the American Urological Association, Serum PSA should
decrease and remain at undetectable levels after radical
prostatectomy. The AUA defines biochemical recurrence as an initial
PSA value 0.2 ng/mL or greater followed by a subsequent confirmatory
PSA value 0.2 ng/mL or greater.
Values obtained with different assay methods or kits cannot be used
interchangeably. Results cannot be interpreted as absolute evidence
of the presence or absence of malignant disease.

Uric Acid
Uric Acid 5.8 mg/dL 3.7 - 8.6
Please Note: 01
Therapeutic target for gout patients: <6.0

Magnesium 2.2 mg/dL 1.6 - 2.3
Copper, Serum 92 ug/dL 72 - 166
Detection Limit = 5
Zinc, Plasma or Serum 75 ug/dL 56 - 134
Detection Limit = 5
Ferritin, Serum 82 ng/mL 30 - 400
Selenium, Blood 216 ug/L 100 - 340
Detection Limit = 10
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:27 am

sweet, lots of details :D

in order of appearance, things i can comment on:

sadface re iron, no serum ferritin? oh i found it way further down - very nice level

testosterone - hmmm now expecting zinc status to be disappointing

uric acid - gotta convert so, 5.8 * 59.48 that looks decent already. 344.98
that's miles off the MS average (194) and well above MS in remission (~230s) not to mention above the average for healthy controls (~290s)

re magnesium
so your lab is using 1.6-2.3, some sources use 1.5-2.5, research re optimal recommends 2.3-2.7
pls consider 2.3 the absolute lowest you want to go, to preclude the ever popular 'deficiency within normal range'

re copper
again i'll be happier if we convert but i think 92 is ok *depending on zinc status*
so 92 x 0.157 = 14.44 umol/l so yeah you can go to upper teens as long as you keep zinc slightly higher still.

re zinc 75
to match healthy controls pls aim for ~120
converting:
75 x 0.153 = 11.48 NO THANK YOU aim for 18-19 pls

omg your lab's reference range ouch what is that...
yep i figured. 8.6 at the bottom end YUCK
mind you 20.5 at the top (aka 134) that's a pleasant surprise.

if you were tested at my dxing hospital here, your level would sit *right* at the bottom of normal. their range is 11.5 - 18.5 umol/l aka 75-121.

first time i tested zinc it came back 8.6, hospital flagged deficient, doc advised 100mg per day for a month then re test. learned to break up the dose and always take with food to avoid nausea.

what else. oh yes my last zinc test was done at a neighbourhood lab where their range is 7.7 - 14.1 (aka ~ 50 - 92) which is NONSENSE. addressing my zinc issue fixed so many things and if i'd used this lab, the problem never would have even been noticed.

did i already post here re testing MORNING FASTING ZINC and the implications? if not should be easy to find :)

i'll get back to you re selenium! don't know why my conversion resource just doesn't have *that* one listed...
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby Scott1 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:47 pm

Hi Chris,

There's a difference between scratching and tearing yourself to ribbons. Your carbon dioxide level is too high as is a liver reading called AST. Both can be affected by overuse of antacids. Milk of magnesia fits into that camp. Just beware of reading too much into results and "cures".

I think you need to go back to a very basic diet for a while that's free of anything like that. If your body is used to getting some assistance then it might object at the start. Try something like Terri Wahls diet and see what happens.

Regards,
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby chris12453 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:49 am

Thanks for the input.

@Scott1,

When I had the testing done, I had been off (or very little) of both laxatives for about a month. Under doctors recommendations, I have had to get back on milk of magnesia a bit because my bowels were just not doing anything of real consequence. In all honesty my diet is pretty basic. The constant hunger that has crept up now if a little disconcerting and irritating, both at the same time. I still eat my greek yogurt with granola and blue berries in the morning, salad or if its during the weekend when I am home, I replace the salad with a protein shake after my workout for lunch. I eat some carrots/celery/pretzels/figs/or a little peanut butter as little interim snacks to keep metabolism going (which I think has slowed for some reason) and dinner is always a salad with typically chicken. I do eat some turkey hill sugar free ice cream as I have for the past 10 years in the evening or cold cereals as a little snack. Again all of this has not changed in 10 years. My drinks of choice as I previously mentioned, some coffee, green teas, seltzer, waters, gatorades/powerade zero

I guess I can say this past week has been odd with my bowels even more so. I have bronchitis, sinus and a cold all going on.

@jimmylegs,

Thanks for your look at those results. I am going to be getting a battery of test again in short order (say 3 or so weeks). I have finally setup an appointment with a University MS specialist out of Hackensack University Medical Center here in Jersey. Mt. Sinai will be my next visit should this one turn out to not be so good. At the same time, another family member just saw this doctor for the first time a couple of days ago and it went extremely well. Better than any neurologist we have ever seen with regards to MS.
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby Scott1 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:07 am

Hi,

I'm afraid I've run out of ideas. You have several readings that are described as high so I guess they are pointing to the problem but its way past my capacity to interpret. Maybe an endocrinologist might help.

Regards and best of luck,
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby chris12453 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:16 pm

Hey @Scott1,

I am out of ideas as well. Its why I am seeing an MS specialist. My endocrinologist doesn't see any issues.

We will see what happens. It's beyond frustrating. This unexplained water influx and weight gain is getting aggravated. I keep thinking of the saying they will be able to rebuild me, better, faster, stronger. Lets hope so. I have too many hobbies that involves high intensity and I couldn't imagine life without them.
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby chris12453 » Sun May 27, 2018 6:27 pm

Hello All,

Been a little bit since I last updated. Been pretty busy getting doctors setup and starting a new job, etc. With that said, here is where I stand right this second. I saw my new neuro whom I mentioned previously is an MS specialist. We went through all of my symptoms, reviewed my latest lab, etc and she asked several questions. Probably questions that should've been asked by my previous neuro. She put me on a dead line of July 5th (before this date as this is when I see her again) to see recommended specialists (Neprologist, rheumatologist, cardiologist (ep study) and urologist). I will make this statement up front as it might get a bit lost. Both my neuro and urologist are not sold that all of my symptoms are a manifestation of the MS. I will say that my urologist was a bit confused about my testosterone issue. There is nothing visible or nothing found during an examination that would be indicative of a testosterone issue. My urologist has referred me to another colleague within urology that deals specifically with hormone production. She has also asked me to do a 24 hour urine collection to check volume as that pertains to my massive water intake and lack of urine production. She also wants to do a bladder pressure test.

I also saw a dermatologist to look into why I have head nails and dry skin spots. I was diagnosed with psoriasis and psoriastic arthritis.

I mentioned this to my neuro as well and her thought at this point (after I see all these other specialists) is to maybe switch me off copaxone and put my on tecfidera which helps with the psoriasis. As it relates to the testosterone issue, they may not put me back on injections but rather clomid.

I will update once I see some more doctors of the next month.
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby Scott1 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:54 am

Hi Chris,

I stumbled on this note - http://multiple-sclerosis-research.blog ... of-ms.html .

Perhaps this is the issue you have.

Regards,

(ps Here's a much more detailed look at diabetes insipidus - https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/336333 )
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Re: Excessive water intake with MS

Postby chris12453 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:44 am

Hi Scott,

The article linked definitely sounds like what I am going through. Now, I will not this. My nephrologist indicates I don't have diabetes insipidous, but at the same time, I seem to be that challenging case.

I will update everyone on my latest doctors visits as they have come in the past couple of weeks and more are this week. So my urologist had me do a 24 hour urine collection. With that collection and subsequent testing, I put out 1750mL (1.75L) which is low as per my urologist. Also, we saw a result of high oxalate so she is recommending I go on a low oxalate diet. We also saw a higher than normal pH, but there wasn't much concern there. We also did a bladder pressure test. They filled me up and then watched through a computer monitor how my bladder emptied. What we saw there was where the urine exits the bladder the vein or exit (however you want to describe it) was squared off with 90-degree corners if you will. In a normally person this would be v-shaped. With that, I was started on flomax to see if that would help the situation. If anything, it would help the passing of a stone if one presented or potentially pass the small one I have now.

Also within the urology group I saw a doctor regarding my testosterone issues. There isn't really much we can do here to figure out what is going on. We did some blood work which showed an Eos (absolute) of .5 (reference range is 0-.4x103/uL), testosterone low (250) and FSH low at 1.8. I have no heard from the doctor either way about the first and third result. I was given orders to restart my testosterone injections. I just injected my second shot last evening.

I also have seen a rheumatologist. This came about as I was diagnosed by a dermatologist with psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis. The psoriasis present with heavy nails and nail pitting along with the flaky skin. I will not that a previous dermatologist (who didn't know what they were doing) thought it was just a fungus and used expensive topical drugs that did nothing. Both my new dermatologist and rheumatologist were astounded by the lack of competence. With that said the rheumatologist confirmed. Ultimately this all came about because I have been very uncomfortable and sore in the low back, ankles, Achilles, neck, knees. The doctor noticed my range of motion issues in my low back and neck as well as a little of bit of fluid in the joints. He definitely mentioned inflammation was present. With that we did some examinations (kind of like some neuro tests a chiropractor would use) to pinpoint range or motion, pain, etc. With that we are going to work on a medication that we can match up with my MS meds. I will find out Thursday when I see my neuro if she still wants to look at tecfidera in lieu of copaxone. I will also mention that I was give blood orders which I got taken care of yesterday. He wanted to get a number of auto immune blood tests done (from what I remember on the labs, Hep A,B,C, TB, Vit. D and about 10 others). I will be seeing him again in 2 weeks once the blood results are in. We will also be getting some xrays done to see what is going on. One of the big things that also brought this all about was that I had to stop running. My body cannot take the beating (granted I can grunt through the pain, but I hurt afterwards for at least a week).

So I mentioned above that I stopped running due to the immense pain and recovery issues I was experiencing. I have though been able to seriously increase my cycling over the last month. I have taken maybe two (2) rest days and the rest have just been mostly mountain biking with a couple of road rides thrown in there. I will say that my strength has returned out of the blue. I cannot explain it nor am I complaining. Even at my worst I was seriously out riding a lot of my friends. Now, I am running circles around them. I am also riding downhill enduro courses again. This is something I have not been able to do in a few years.

As with the positive comes the negatives. My water intake has increased yet again. My nephrologist had me stop taking all my water pills, but that just completely messed me up. I tried that for a week and it just wasn't cutting it. Another big issue that I have mentioned before, but I feel now is very relevant is hunger. I am always hungry now. I am doing my best to circumvent this, but it usually leads to drinking more water. I will have a chat tomorrow again with my neurologist and see what we can figure out here.

I think that about sums it up for now. As I mentioned, I am awaiting blood results at this time.

Thanks
Chris
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