Immune system "modulation"

If it's on your mind and it has to do with multiple sclerosis in any way, post it here.

Postby CureOrBust » Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:39 am

Lyon wrote:...Not only have I (hopefully) interested someone but you have discovered...

I am interested in ANY and ALL possibilities. What would probably really excite you is what I was browsing for when I came accross it...

Lyon wrote: stems from researchers whose mission at the time was to eradicate parasites

I am hoping that studying how they evade our immune system, will give treatment options.

Lyon wrote:I think I've already posted this

I didnt follow the link, because I think I know the story. And once was enough.

Lyon wrote:Whadda ya want for Christmas?

My spasicity to be gone.

Lyon wrote:The Professor I talked to is one of many researchers around the world who is in the process of trying to isolate and replicate those chemicals but evidently it's not a simple matter.

Should these two labs chat?

ljm wrote:Can we throw stuff at you, see if it bounces? ... How does that explain RR?

I know I have read in a couple of places, but cant find it now, that there are 9 tenents that MS theorys have to explain to be condidered a possibility. Anyone know what they are? lets bounce them against the worm man.
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Test the insulin idea too.

Postby lyndacarol » Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:59 am

CureOrBust wrote:
I know I have read in a couple of places, but cant find it now, that there are 9 tenents that MS theorys have to explain to be condidered a possibility. Anyone know what they are? lets bounce them against the worm man.


Please let me know this test of 9 tenets and use it on the insulin idea, too.
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Postby Melody » Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:24 am

Lyons damn bugs now have my interest not that I believe John is infected nor ever was but my father in-law( now deceased) had a parasite infection about 12 years back just prior to a major RA episode which left him with very low mobility the best part of a year. He had never had an attack previously. More questions as usual no answers. On a good note Lyon check turmeric it seems to be able to squash some of those nasty bugs (worms)for you.
John was diagnosed Jan 2005. On lipitor 20mg .On Copaxone since July 4,2005. Vitamin D3 2000iu-4000iu (depending on sunshine months)June 10 2005(RX::Dr. O'Connor) Omega 3 as well Turmeric since April 2005. Q10 60mg. 1500mg liquid Glucosamine Nov 2005.
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Postby Lyon » Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:22 am

oo
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Postby Melody » Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:22 am

Are you trying to say we need to ad parasites. Good Gawd
John was diagnosed Jan 2005. On lipitor 20mg .On Copaxone since July 4,2005. Vitamin D3 2000iu-4000iu (depending on sunshine months)June 10 2005(RX::Dr. O'Connor) Omega 3 as well Turmeric since April 2005. Q10 60mg. 1500mg liquid Glucosamine Nov 2005.
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Postby Lyon » Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:47 am

oo
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nine precepts for environmental factors

Postby ljm » Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:53 am

Cureo,

I found this post which may be the one you've referred to earlier.

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-5353.html

Its an article by Asthon Embry (best bet diet site). According to Embry, research into epidemiology of MS provides a number of important constraints for the interpretation of an environmental factor as the main cause of MS.

Here are the constraints Embry identified for any proposed environmental factor, I've copied from the article, but just added numbers. And yeah, there are nine.

1- It must be found throughout the world but be specific enough to affect only half or less of the susceptible individuals.

2- It must affect immigrant children more than it does immigrant adults. On the other hand it must affect susceptible identical twins mainly when they are adults rather than when they are children.

3- It must be much more common or effective in northwestern Europe, Canada, United States, Australia and New Zealand than in the rest of the world.

4- It must be more common or effective in higher latitude areas so as to create a pronounced north/south gradient of MS prevalence.

5- It must have enough variation so as to create significant MS prevalence and incidence differences within ethnically homogeneous populations over relatively short distances.

6- In Hawaii it must adversely affect those of Japanese origin whereas at the same time have a positive effect on Caucasians.

7- It must be transportable so as to explain the sudden increase in MS prevalence in the Faroes following British troop occupation during World War II.

8- It cannot be transmitted by either person to person contact or by a blood transfusion.

9- It must be increasingly more widespread and effective over the last 100 years.
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Postby Lyon » Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:02 pm

oo
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Postby ljm » Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:30 pm

Yeah. I was going to add a postscript to that entry, but I thought it was obvious enough. In case its not...Embry is equally "obsessed" with his own take on a specific environmental factor (addition of food stuffs which were not part of early human diets). He apparently identified this factor after sifting through available epidemiological data and felt it was the only factor that "made sense" out of the data. His references are all credible (or creditable), although there is no doubt one's passions can lead one to an inadvertant bias.

Nonetheless, I think that Embry's approach invaluable to structuring rigorous and productive discussion. I'd be interested, Lyon, after you've had time to review the artcile, to hear your comments. Maybe the list of constraints is incomplete. Maybe there are constraints which should be abandoned if underlying research was suspect OR refuted by later studies.
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Postby Lyon » Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:49 pm

oo
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Trying the 9 Constraints Test with insulin excess

Postby lyndacarol » Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:23 pm

Although hyperinsulinemia may not qualify as an "enviromental factor," I am still trying to pit it against these 9 Constraints:

1. Everyone in the world has a pancreas. Only some may be weak naturally; some susceptible to viruses or bacteria; some diets or conditions may stimulate overproduction of insulin.

2. Childen have longer exposure to any of the above-mentioned situations.

3. This may be where Vitamin D steps in.

4. Isn't this the same as 3? Vitamin D again because normal insulin secretion is dependent on D.

5. Wouldn't variation in diet, inflammation, and natural strength of the organ answer this?

6. Traditional diet and genetic strength of pancreas again?

7. Could British troops have introduced a virus that targets the pancreas? Or a diet with more carbs or starches? Or an affluence that allowed for a diet richer in these? What was the "native" diet before British arrival?

8. Not transmitted by personal contact, but I don't know about blood transfusions--I don't believe blood donations are accepted from MS patients.

9. Diet encouraging more glucose (and therefore, more insulin) and increased inactivity are more common now than 100 years ago and suspected to be responsible for greater rates of diabetes and other diseases. (Why not MS, too?)

This exercise did not seem to fit well with hyperinsulinemia, but I tried. I welcome constructive comments.
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Re: nine precepts for environmental factors

Postby Lyon » Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:30 pm

oo
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Postby CureOrBust » Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:18 am

The issue I have with helminths is that we got rid of them for a reason. http://www.answers.com/topic/helminth None of this sounds pleasant. Are the ones you know of lyon any of these?

Now, from what I have read, I could see how they may have reduced the MS numbers. To illustrate my way of thinking, I will pull some numbers out of thin air. ie I have made these numbers up people!

Lets say, per 1000 people with helminths, 10 died. 50 suffered & 0 had MS. Now without helminths in 1000 people, lets say 0 died (from helminth infestation), 5 have MS. To a scientist, they just saved 5 lives in every 1000. Something that looks good on paper. We have a 5 fold increase in MS but the death rate (from helminths) is gone.

However, my interest in this is that if the 5 that have MS in the helminth free popuation, were to be given helminths and proper monitoring, the MS numbers may go down to 0 again. Lets remember, intrerferons are not considered "good" in our bodies either.

But, I think that research will probably push for discovering and understanding whats going on instead of just using the worms raw. However, on TV tonight here, a medical show had a story how sterile maggots were being used in a research hospital to clean out the wounds of diabetic ulcers (they will only eat dead flesh, and therefore allow better healing of living flesh) AND how leaches were being used to clear out blood from a chunk of transplanted meat on a patient. Supposedly when they transplant, the blood can pool and the flesh die.
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Postby ljm » Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:02 am

Cureo,

But, I think that research will probably push for discovering and understanding whats going on instead of just using the worms raw


My concern is that research will be isolating the immunomodulatory substance excreted by helminths...and either coming up with a proprietary version or going straight into the seemingly mandatory tests with copaxone.

(Thats what happened with minocycline. It showed early promise as an neuroprotective agent. It was safe, cheap, generic, easily dispensed. Immediately one company tried to produce a non-antibiotic and patented version, while Copaxone bribed research team at UofA/Canada to ensure phase II was based on minocycine with copaxone)

I don't want to press Bob on this, but, if he is pretty certain that Helminth is the key, has he considered urging his wife, or his relatives with auto/immune diseases, to consider?
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Postby Lyon » Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:13 pm

oo
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