Uric acid crops up again

If it's on your mind and it has to do with multiple sclerosis in any way, post it here.

Postby CureOrBust » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:00 pm

TwistedHelix wrote:...Inosine aids stroke recovery...

... found that the naturally occurring compound inosine stimulates nerve fiber growth in the brain and spinal cord...

...In rats in whom a stroke was induced, one group was given inosine while the remaining rats served as controls....

This article sounds very familiar to me. And I think remember a similar article were rats were "given" inosine. It was injected directly into their CNS!

Meanwhile I swallow as much of the stuff as I can.
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uric-acid-raising foods

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:06 pm

libreni, here also is a quote from the wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uric_acid

Sources of uric acid
Serum uric acid can be elevated due to high fructose intake, reduced excretion by the kidneys, and or high intake of dietary purine.

Fructose can be found in processed foods and soda beverages - in some countries, in the form of high fructose corn syrup.

Purines are found in high amounts in animal food products, especially internal organs [22].

Examples of high purine sources include: sweetbreads, anchovies, sardines, liver, beef kidneys, brains, meat extracts (e.g Oxo, Bovril), herring, mackerel, scallops, game meats, and gravy.

A moderate amount of purine is also contained in beef, pork, poultry, fish and seafood, asparagus, cauliflower, spinach, mushrooms, green peas, lentils, dried peas, beans, oatmeal, wheat bran and wheat germ [23].

Moderate intake of purine-containing food is not associated with an increased risk of gout [24].


from what i've read libreni serum uric acid is at least in the 360 range for gout, 290-ish for "healthy controls" and average 194 for ms patients, 160 during attack, 230 during "remission". as i mentioned before, when i had my level tested it was 194, precisely.
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bloodwork important!

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:07 pm

let's all remember to get our blood tested so that we don't overdo anything and end up all gouty! though i think most of us would have some way to go!
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Re: bloodwork important!

Postby CureOrBust » Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:57 pm

jimmylegs wrote:from what i've read libreni serum uric acid is at least in the 360 range for gout, 290-ish for "healthy controls" and average 194 for ms patients, 160 during attack, 230 during "remission". as i mentioned before, when i had my level tested it was 194, precisely.


jimmylegs wrote:let's all remember to get our blood tested so that we don't overdo anything and end up all gouty! though i think most of us would have some way to go!



I just pulled out my blood test results. For uric acid it states a normal range of 0.2 to 0.46 mmol/L. My results have been:
10/5/05 0.17* the one below nrm, which started me on inosine
28/6/05 0.27 within norm, thank you inosine...
27/9/05 0.41
16/5/06 0.27

I am sure I have had other ones since then, but cant find them. Oh-well, I had one on friday, so I expect the results by wednesday.
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Unsubstantiated comment on butchers' wives

Postby lyndacarol » Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:41 am

Jimmylegs, in reference to your list of inosine sources, I have this hazy memory to offer. YEARS ago I read a newspaper tidbit that butchers' wives developed MS more often than the norm. I'm sure I clipped this out, but, of course, have no idea where it is right now.

I sheepishly offer this info to caution that maybe LOTS of red meat is not a good idea. Maybe someone else here has a way to verify this.
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all kinds of animal stuff

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:14 am

COB, i should have included units, mine were nmol/l so i guess if we compared your results to mine we'd be seeing that i started at 194 and you started at 170. but you got up to 410! wow! that's a little high, but that inosine must be working for sure! the 270 looks like a good place to be, good on ya!

hey there LC, that is interesting. the post about getting the bloodwork done is meant to offer the caution you echoed, that moderation is the key, too much of anything can cause problems, and in the case of uric acid it's gout that you can end up with if you go too far. that i know of, anyway.

to nit pick, the food sources listed are "purine" sources, not inosine sources. inosine is a supplement. both things end up elevating serum uric acid.

also, I searched google for butchers wives multiple sclerosis and found a study. looks like it's not necessarily the uric acid that is the issue for butchers and/or their wives. uh oh i feel my 2006 word of the year coming on again... maybe i need to make a resolution... anyhoo, here are a few long but fascinating quotes:

Occupational associations with MS continue to suggest a substantial role
for environmental factors. There have been few studies of MS by
occupation (Amaducci, Arfaioli, Inzitari, and Ivlarchi 1985; Murrell 1988;
Murrell and Matthews 1990). They identify a raised risk for leather
workers. The most recent study identifies a range of occupations in the
UK with -significantly raised SMRS, which are represented schematically
in figure 3. These trends were not the same for carcinoma of the colon or
ischaemic heart disease. In this study wives of farm managers and farm
workers appeared to be at greater risk than wives of butchers and
meatcutters and, although some of the data is based on low case numbers,
it is the overall trend and direction of the findings that is important.
Increased contact with a farm or raw farm products could fit with the
mathematical models of MS proposed by Alter, Loewenson and Horshe
(1973) in those communities reporting high prevalence.
An example of
such a deduction is the farm contact histories reported in the earlier
association of MS with distemper of dogs in Iceland reported by Cook,
Gudmundson, Benediks and Dowling (1980), although the distemper and
dog ownership hypothesis is now thought unlikely in the aetiology of MS
(Krakowa, Read, Nassim, Smith, Patterson and Warlow 198@; Miele,
Mathes and Matzier 1983). In one twin st udy by Bolsowick, Kurtzke,
Brody, Hrubic and Gillespie (1978), contact with farm animals was found
to be a significant environmental variable. The outbreak of MS in
laboratory workers involved with research with brains from sheep dying
from swayback by Campbell, Daniel, Porter, Russell, Smith and Innes
(1947) is particularly interesting and relevant to this notion, especially
now that confirmation has been updated (Dean, McDougall and Elian
1985), and the fact that swayback itself is due to a copper deficiency.[/
quote]

http://www.direct-ms.org/pdf/CausalHypothesis/MurrellReview.pdf

and here's another tidbit:

On the Internet, I discovered the National Center for Home Food Preservation’s site which reassured me that the, "controversy [surrounding] the use of nitrite ... has been settled and all sausage products produced using nitrite have been shown to be free of the known carcinogens." However, I also discovered a Reuters Health report about a study linking an increased risk of developing Multiple Sclerosis in people who ate certain types of smoked sausage in childhood.

The nitrites, a preservative, are not the problem -- but rather how the nitrates react with the phenols produced when sausage is smoked. So it’s a good thing I prefer fresh, undried sausage to cured. I can eat all I want and just forget about the nitrate issue.


http://www.thesquaretable.com/Winter2004/sausage.htm

and this is particularly interesting (and disgusting!)

...studies of exposed occupational groups are more
rewarding and frequently the preferred method used to identify or
detect such risks, because occupational exposures are additional to
those engendered in the general population and are substantially
higher, and therefore much easier to detect any associated risks. It is
therefore proposed that any potential health risk posed by the myriad
of biological agents present in food animals to human health could
also be investigated by studying exposed workers in the meat industry.

There is a well-defined exposure gradient among these workers, the
highest exposure occurring in slaughterhouses, with much lower
exposures expected in workers in the meat department of supermarkets
or canned meat industries. Meat workers have the highest human
exposure to these transmissible agents, because for example in a
typical large abattoir, they may come into contact with hundreds or
several thousands of animals that are slaughtered daily. Also, contact
with the animals is very intimate involving contact with secretions,
blood and other body fluids, droppings, and internal organs.
Moreover,
abrasions and cuts from piercing wounds from sharp bone splinters and knives, and breaches in the skin from dermatitis due to contact
with irritant enzymes are frequent, making it easy for agents to enter
directly into the circulatory system
. Power saws used on large
carcasses, slicing, mixing, mincing and tenderizing machines, falls
from slippery floors, and burns and scalds from the use of steamheated
fat-rendering vessels, are all further sources of injury that
facilitate entry of agents into the body and make the industry one of
the most dangerous of all industries
(Copplestone & Kaplan, 1972;
Antonev et al, 1978; Women’s Occupational Health Resource Center,
1979). Aerosol transmission occurs continuously (Harris et al, 1962;
Rahkio & Korkeala, 1997), and exposure can even occur through
ingestion (for example, it is not uncommon for workers in the kill
floor in cattle abattoirs to drink blood from the animals. No other
human group has such potential for high exposure to these
transmissible agents.

... Cattle, pigs, sheep and poultry are provide the main source of food for the vast majority of mankind, and they are naturally infected with a plethora of transmissible agents that include prions, viruses, bacteria, protozoa, etc., that are known to cause disease in these animals, including cancer and neurologic diseases.
...Transmissible agents also cause an inestimable variety of nonmalignant
diseases in cattle, pigs, sheep and poultry, which are welldescribed
in standard veterinary textbooks.
... Some of these agents cause acute or latent disease of the nervous
system in animals with associated disturbances in gait, loss of
consciousness, paralysis, tremors, seizures, coma, and depression
.
... Multiple sclerosis developed in four out of seven research workers
exposed to lambs affected by the swayback, a disease of the central
nervous system in sheep (Dean et al, 1985)
. Suspected cases of
congenital myasthenia gravis were recently diagnosed for the first time
in cattle (Thompson, 1998). These examples raise the possibility that
many of the neurologic diseases in humans presently of unknown
etiology, such as multiple sclerosis, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (Lou
Gehrig’s disease), Alzheimer’s disease, and some forms of
Parkinson’s disease may well be due to zoonotic infectious agents
originating from these animals.


http://cellscience.com/reviews5/Johnson.pdf

most interesting! but it sounds like you have to be exposed to raw brains on a regular basis to be in danger, and you can get purines from lots of non meat sources if it's a major concern. or just take the inosine capsule. also, i was a vegan for 15 years before i came down with this thing so it can't all be from animals!

and now please excuse this but i'm going to climb way out to the very skinniest end of a random and sketchy limb while thinking about the HepA vaccine that preceded my initial attack event:

Abstract
A method for producing novel African Green Monkey Kidney (AGMK) cell lines is taught. These cell lines which are free of viable adventitious microbial agents are useful as substrates for viruses and for the preparation of viral vaccines.

What is claimed is:
1. A method of producing a vaccine for a virus selected from the group consisting of rotaviruses, enteroviruses, polioviruses, respiratory viruses, and hepatitis A viruses comprising the steps of:

(i) producing said virus using a cell line isolated from the kidney of an African Green Monkey, which cell line is substantially free of viable adventitious microbial agents and is able to support the growth of rotaviruses, astroviruses, enteroviruses, polioviruses, respiratory viruses, and hepatitis A viruses, by a method comprising:
(a) inoculating said cell line with an inoculum of said virus;
(b) incubating said inoculated cell line to permit proliferation of said virus; and
(c) harvesting the virus resulting from step (c); and
(ii) preparing a vaccine from the harvested virus.


http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT5911998&id=w40WAAAAEBAJ&dq=hav+vaccine+substrate
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Postby Wonderfulworld » Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:28 am

Jimmylegs my head is now swirling with green monkeys and venison and viruses and smoked sausages!....... :? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

No, I understand the reasoning, had seen that article on smoked meat and MS risk a while ago too.......

Just to say high dose Niacin also increases uric acid..is anyone taking this? I take it for a few days in a row each month but I saw that it can cause liver damage so I'm a bit cautious. Does cause a very strong niacin-flush, which I've actually come to enjoy!
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niacin

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:58 am

hey WW blame it on LC, she's the one who got me reading up on meat workers! lol! :wink: i wonder if there's a cluster in montreal.

i did a round of niacin (B3) flushes earlier this year when i was doing a sort of modified klenner b-vitamin protocol. it did wonders. i freaked out the first time i accidentally discovered a niacin flush but have since used it intentionally and yea you do kind of get to like it, weird huh! also niacin is an alternative to the statins but i did not know it elevates uric acid, good one!
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Thank you, jl, for your "meat research"

Postby lyndacarol » Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:47 pm

Jimmylegs, I thank you for picking up the ball (butchers' wives) and running with it. I am glad to know such a person (you) so capable of doing such reseaarch!!!

Silly me! I thought the mechanism causing more MS was that those women might eat more meat, which contains arachidonic acid, which promotes inflammation. Who knows??? The science you found certainly has more validity than my unfounded ideas.

But isn't a forum for exchanging ideas and stimulating new ones?
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googletastic

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:15 pm

hiya, ya all i did was attempt to track down the item you mentioned to get some detail. when i put the terms "butchers wives multiple sclerosis" in google, those articles were what came up on page one of the results (along with a selection of off topic non-hits) - so thank google, not any special research skills of mine! :D
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Postby CureOrBust » Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:43 pm

jimmylegs wrote:but you got up to 410! wow! that's a little high, but that inosine must be working for sure! the 270 looks like a good place to be

I havent read it anywhere, but I would hazard a guess that people with gout not only have high uric acid but also cannot process it when its high. ie They are more sensitive to high levels. With the pathologhy lab having a normal range up to 0.46 mmol/L, I would be more than happy to sit at 0.41.
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levels

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:40 pm

ya gouty folks can get it if they're going to, down into the 350s i believe. but the same study said some ppl can be as high as 565 and not have gout.
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i just love talking about uric acid!

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:46 pm

well i updated wikipedia's uric acid page again. this time i did some organizing and i also added the bit saying that low levels of vitamin B2 and a high accumulation of copper can exacerbate low uric acid levels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uric_acid
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Re: uric-acid-raising foods

Postby Libreni » Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:13 pm

jimmylegs wrote:from what i've read libreni serum uric acid is at least in the 360 range for gout, 290-ish for "healthy controls" and average 194 for ms patients, 160 during attack, 230 during "remission". as i mentioned before, when i had my level tested it was 194, precisely.

Thanks for the info. It's much appreciated. I'm not liking the high fructose corn syrup, though... I avoid that poison. I like most of the other sources listed, sans the internal organs. :)
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Re: all kinds of animal stuff

Postby Libreni » Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:23 pm

jimmylegs wrote:
... Cattle, pigs, sheep and poultry are provide the main source of food for the vast majority of mankind, and they are naturally infected with a plethora of transmissible agents that include prions, viruses, bacteria, protozoa, etc., that are known to cause disease in these animals, including cancer and neurologic diseases.
...Transmissible agents also cause an inestimable variety of nonmalignant
diseases in cattle, pigs, sheep and poultry, which are welldescribed
in standard veterinary textbooks.
... Some of these agents cause acute or latent disease of the nervous
system in animals with associated disturbances in gait, loss of
consciousness, paralysis, tremors, seizures, coma, and depression
.
... Multiple sclerosis developed in four out of seven research workers
exposed to lambs affected by the swayback, a disease of the central
nervous system in sheep (Dean et al, 1985)
. Suspected cases of
congenital myasthenia gravis were recently diagnosed for the first time
in cattle (Thompson, 1998). These examples raise the possibility that
many of the neurologic diseases in humans presently of unknown
etiology, such as multiple sclerosis, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (Lou
Gehrig’s disease), Alzheimer’s disease, and some forms of
Parkinson’s disease may well be due to zoonotic infectious agents
originating from these animals.

So, if these transmissible agents can be passed from farm animal to human, could they then not be transmissible from human to human? This is making wonder about a lot of things...
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